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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 58 for the 27th of

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November 2009 Richard Saunders here once

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again from Sydney Australia now to all

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those people wondering where Stefan's

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been lately Stefan's not been very well

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he tells me he's getting much better and

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I think he should be on the show next

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week get better soon Stefan after

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skeptic zone team this week are jumping

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on planes and heading up to Brisbane for

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the Australian skeptics National

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Convention so look out in the coming

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weeks there'll be lots of reports and

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interviews from this convention and if

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you're in Brisbane this weekend the

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weekend of the 28 and 29th come and say

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hello now to this week's episode dr.

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rachy and myself go off to the offices

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of choice magazine the consumer affairs

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magazine here in Australia and speak to

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christopher's in a fascinating interview

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we're big fans of choice say they're the

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sort of people who test things and look

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at things much like the skeptics that's

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followed by a short interview with James

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Randi conducted over ten years ago by

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our good friend Paul Willis now I've

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chosen this interviewer although it's a

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bit old because Randy discusses

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facilitated communication and this has

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been in the news lately and after that

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we have the think tank so sit back have

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a nice hmm chocolate sundae and enjoy

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the consumers champion independent and

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transparent choice ensures the consumer

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voice is heard loudly and clearly choice

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empowers customers to get the most out

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of their purchasing decisions by

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providing a mix of advocacy and advice

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dr. ray Jay and I headed down to

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marrickville here in Sydney and we spoke

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to christopher's in media spokesman for

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choice choice magazine and we're

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speaking with Christophersen now the

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media spokesman for choice magazine

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Christopher how long first of all how

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long has choice magazine been going on

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it's 50 years we're just coming up to

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the celebration so really it was born as

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were consumer groups in the UK in the

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u.s. about the same time late 50s early

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60s when a lot more consumer products

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were coming on the market people had to

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side so what's a toaster or kitchen

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mixer should i get there were big issues

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then with product safety people actually

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being burned cut and killed in things so

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it was that kind of drive that got going

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and it's after 50 years of checking out

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this gear now I think we're all looking

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ahead how do we in this uncertain future

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in terms of the environmentally economy

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what's the role for consumer groups and

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does that mean that there has been a

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journal for that long or just a group no

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no the magazine its magazine itself yeah

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so has been monthly and it's we're not

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for profit so it's really people who

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subscribed signed up on the dotted line

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joined up that that that funds all of

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the research that we do so we don't get

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a Zach from the government or from

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advertisers it really is just from

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people who want to be a part of it

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because they get a benefit in terms of

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knowing what's good and what's not good

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but also keen to fund our advocacy and

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campaigns areas in terms of pushing for

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justice and transparency in various

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different arenas and you do have

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archives going back that far the first

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issue is still available yeah oh look we

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still have the first issue and I think

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they were testing tobacco and 22 bullets

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in those days

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it's amazing when you look back at what

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will consider consumer items you can't

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actually hardly by now but yes it's I

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think was low tar tobacco so they're

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trying to see if there's been any

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appreciable difference between the two

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sorts I don't think we've ever endorsed

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a cigarette smoking right right so

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Christopher you are the face the public

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face I guess of the Australian Consumer

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Commission and at the moment you've got

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over 200,000 subscribers how has that

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changed over that time have you found

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there's been periods where more people

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have subscribed because of some

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particular sort of consumer trend year

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linking yeah it grow and it's the

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Australian Consumer Association it grew

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up until about the 70s to about 200,000

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and then it sort of gone up and down

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there but often it can actually be we

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found you know the global financial

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crisis actually there's a bit of a

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flight to value people that she wanted

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to get more value for their spending so

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they were prepared to say look I can

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join up 80 bucks a year but it will

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actually help save me money and I think

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that's always been one of our I say

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selling points we're not for profit but

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if you actually engage with that and

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found out about private health and

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insurance and and super and all these

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other things you would actually save

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yourself money because you'd find out

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there are more efficient ways to face

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these very complicated products and

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services we now have to engage with well

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can we talk about some of the products

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and services that you do test you

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mentioned just then health care which

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private health insurance anyone all over

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the world would know that the plans are

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always very complicated but one of the

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other things you also test which is

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complicated is mobile phone plans can

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you tell us about some of the other

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products that you do test I just have to

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say about mobile phone plans that's what

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they're known as what's called a confuse

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opoly and they're so confusing and

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deliberately confusing that nobody can

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compare like with like and you know

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we've got fantastic boffins here with

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clipboards and spray cheese they used it

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comparing you know Mongolian yak butter

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with something from Mexico but they

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can't compare mobile phone plans because

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there's too many variables and the

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computing power of the universe isn't up

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to it you know that's something we're

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always simplicity and I'm sure

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no that's a value that scientists

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generally embrace and that's one we're

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really pushing for simplicity and

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products in in approach and description

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if we get simplicity in terms of the way

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that these things are sold a lot of the

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bull falls off them because you know

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it's when you get complexity that's when

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the the trickiness and the deceptiveness

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and a sleight-of-hand you know can slip

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in there unseen we we know exactly what

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you mean because and we might discuss

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this just briefly we regularly go as our

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listeners know we'll know we regularly

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go to the mind-body-spirit festivals and

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Sydney of mind-body wallet as we call

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them and this very point about keeping

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it simple we challenge some people there

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to try for our $100,000 prize we have

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proof of the paranormal or supernatural

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strange things and their complaint to us

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was we can't take your test because it's

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too simple they wanted to make it as

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complicated as they possibly could but

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that's that's that is the scientific

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outlook I think keeping it simple it is

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and as we know that you know the world

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is incredibly complicated but part of

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most explanations you know there is

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something as a gem of something very

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simple it's always fairly hard to find

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that and but you know that's part of our

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challenge anyway and yours as yours so

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you have a team here Christopher that

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does all the testing and can you tell us

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a little bit about the process whereby

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you would find a product and then how

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you go about testing whether it's any

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good there's about a hundred people who

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work a choice so there are people who do

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market research see what's new in the

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market what's worth looking at there are

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buyers who go out just as ordinary

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people you know they pay cash and credit

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card we actually buy everything we don't

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get any freebies or whatever then they

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come back and then in terms of you know

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if they'd be fridges or white goods

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they're tested by people and we've

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developed protocols you know how do you

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actually test a fridge well you've

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actually got to put it in a thermal

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laboratory so you can't control the

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ambient temperature around the fridge to

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see how well the temperature inside so

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some of these tests are actually quite

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complicated because you're not just

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testing one for it might be testing 20

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comparatively alongside each other so

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I'd be quite detailed and then again how

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do you

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test coffee grinder and it's been huge

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Grove you're just saying coffee

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percolators copy expresso machines

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people have in their houses how do you

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compare those so we have a standard

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coffee machine that's a good one and

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that makes the standard good expresso

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everything else is measured by a tasting

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team around that and then there's way

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you grind it the sort of coffee and

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another example would be dishwashers how

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do you compare the performance of

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dishwasher as well scientific method

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you've got to make sure that everything

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goes in equally dirty so there are

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protocols for determining what levels of

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grease and an organic waste there are on

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the plates what sort of plates they are

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so you can measure how clean they are

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clothing if you love this we have to how

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do you measure washing machines well you

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have to make sure all the clothes are

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dirty in the same way to the same extent

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yeah so you actually get a material to

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make it gets material with dirt already

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impregnated in it from Europe and then

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you can wash it and you use an optical

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sensor to determine how white it is to

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see how much the dirts gone out there's

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a lot of science in it Wow why does it

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come from Europe just out of interest

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but well and a dirty air look at

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probably armed with much of a market I

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know they're probably people listening a

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thing could send in their dirty kids

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clothes no in terms of there's probably

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won't in one place in the world who

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makes you know dirty bits of fabric to

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be tested in washing machines right so

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it's kind of like a standard that you

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would use in a scientific test maybe you

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would get a protein as a standard and

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measure everything besides that it is

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what she is finding you know what that

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benchmark is it could measure other

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things so you mentioned and I actually

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know someone who used to work here who

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is a scientist you do have scientists on

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staff can you tell us a little bit about

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the background of some of your testing

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people yeah look a sorrow lot of the

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CSIRO culture runs through the veins of

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this place you know in terms of that

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sense of service and dedication and

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inquiry and in fact curiosity is one of

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our you know brand values if you like so

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that is something that's really pushed

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curiosity and inquisitiveness and that

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we have scientists as say across a realm

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through

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I think would be an important area

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that's something people very engaged and

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interested in additives to food food

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wrappings and the effect what's in food

274
00:11:02,850 --> 00:11:00,850
how do you measure you know so we've got

275
00:11:04,590 --> 00:11:02,860
to come up with one test we did recently

276
00:11:07,850 --> 00:11:04,600
was you know how much added water is

277
00:11:11,429 --> 00:11:07,860
there in sliced ham from the supermarket

278
00:11:14,129 --> 00:11:11,439
well you know ham well all living things

279
00:11:15,689 --> 00:11:14,139
have walked in them anyway pam has water

280
00:11:18,059 --> 00:11:15,699
added to it as part of the curing

281
00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:18,069
process but how do you work out you know

282
00:11:22,350 --> 00:11:20,889
what is the added added water and that

283
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:22,360
says you've quite complicated so we have

284
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:25,930
to devise a lot of these tests to really

285
00:11:30,410 --> 00:11:27,610
work out how to do it another one was

286
00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:30,420
was phthalates which is a plasticizer

287
00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:34,870
used in the seals inside the metal tops

288
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:37,350
on glass jars you know fairly innocuous

289
00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:39,610
sort of thing you'd think but in fact

290
00:11:44,340 --> 00:11:42,100
these can migrate into oily foods and

291
00:11:47,009 --> 00:11:44,350
it's how you find a test for that so you

292
00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:47,019
can compare them actually that's one of

293
00:11:50,939 --> 00:11:49,569
the anti-vaxxers pet hates at the moment

294
00:11:53,309 --> 00:11:50,949
is they're saying thats a lights are bad

295
00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:53,319
for children so you shouldn't heat up

296
00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:55,809
your bottle in the microwave because

297
00:11:59,369 --> 00:11:57,279
that allows that process to happen

298
00:12:01,769 --> 00:11:59,379
apparently I don't think they've done

299
00:12:04,439 --> 00:12:01,779
any research yes look at sea edit gain

300
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:04,449
you know there's this look there's

301
00:12:09,059 --> 00:12:07,360
endocrine disruptors that and look again

302
00:12:11,369 --> 00:12:09,069
there are these areas where it's very

303
00:12:13,259 --> 00:12:11,379
marginal but I'm sure we'll find it with

304
00:12:15,179 --> 00:12:13,269
mobile phones and brain tumors you know

305
00:12:16,980 --> 00:12:15,189
suddenly there's the breakthrough

306
00:12:21,809 --> 00:12:16,990
research and that's another thing we do

307
00:12:23,699 --> 00:12:21,819
a lot is review the mainstream journals

308
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:23,709
you know the proper hard science and

309
00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:24,959
we've had some good old ding-dongs

310
00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:27,939
people into the you know some people in

311
00:12:31,139 --> 00:12:29,350
the organic movement we're not against

312
00:12:32,910 --> 00:12:31,149
organic food organic foods fine but some

313
00:12:34,889 --> 00:12:32,920
of the claims made for organic food we

314
00:12:37,949 --> 00:12:34,899
do take issue with some of the claims

315
00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:37,959
made about various berries and juices

316
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:39,670
who produces we had a good guy like

317
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:41,290
those you know the levels of

318
00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:43,480
antioxidants but you know people say

319
00:12:46,829 --> 00:12:44,920
well then you know they send all these

320
00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:46,839
references to all these papers and all

321
00:12:51,329 --> 00:12:48,790
this research but we really have to say

322
00:12:53,939 --> 00:12:51,339
will you know what we actually stick

323
00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:53,949
with the mainstream science and that's

324
00:12:59,189 --> 00:12:57,550
that is our benchmark so actually on

325
00:13:00,809 --> 00:12:59,199
organic food on your website at the

326
00:13:01,860 --> 00:13:00,819
moment there's a poll where people can

327
00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:01,870
vote as to

328
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:03,550
they can tell the difference between

329
00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:06,250
organic meat and whether they think

330
00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:07,630
whether they just buy it because it

331
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:09,220
makes them feel warm and fuzzy or

332
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:11,050
whether they actually can't tell the

333
00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:13,570
difference so people can maybe head to a

334
00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:16,420
choice apalsa looked at it recent ah

335
00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:19,180
well last night I think it said most

336
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:22,270
people couldn't tell the difference the

337
00:13:25,890 --> 00:13:24,490
next highest votes was for people bought

338
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:25,900
it because it makes the warm and fuzzy

339
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:27,370
and the lowest was they can tell the

340
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:29,890
difference well it's interesting

341
00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:31,630
actually because people will say they

342
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:33,070
can tell the difference but really the

343
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:34,720
only thing that counts is you know what

344
00:13:40,019 --> 00:13:37,390
happens in terms of blind taste testing

345
00:13:41,070 --> 00:13:40,029
and we haven't done all of these but

346
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:41,080
we've done a number in terms of

347
00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:42,850
free-range eggs in terms of you know

348
00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:45,220
free range chicken breasts people

349
00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:47,230
actually can't tell the difference of

350
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:49,960
the ever and we pride ourselves that we

351
00:13:53,970 --> 00:13:52,330
can but actually ultimately no unless

352
00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:53,980
we've got very sophisticated palate

353
00:13:58,560 --> 00:13:56,620
really know what to look out for it is

354
00:14:00,840 --> 00:13:58,570
very difficult yeah it's just that those

355
00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:00,850
products are very much more expensive in

356
00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:03,430
general aren't they well they are and

357
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:05,500
not all organic ones are so much more

358
00:14:09,180 --> 00:14:07,930
but many of them can be and that's the

359
00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:09,190
difference and I suppose it's the

360
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:11,260
argument you know people who don't have

361
00:14:15,329 --> 00:14:13,450
that much do you just give one small

362
00:14:17,340 --> 00:14:15,339
organic apple to the kids or do you give

363
00:14:18,990 --> 00:14:17,350
them a whole range of conventional

364
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:19,000
provement of where does the real benefit

365
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:20,320
line and those are kind of some of the

366
00:14:26,329 --> 00:14:22,959
questions we try to answer one of the

367
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:26,339
campaigns that you one of the things you

368
00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:28,089
investigated recently which I was

369
00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:29,500
particularly interested in was the

370
00:14:34,079 --> 00:14:32,200
pharmacy diets these are the weight loss

371
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:34,089
diets that you can buy in a pharmacy and

372
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:36,670
you got quite a lot of coverage in the

373
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:39,610
media for that basically you slammed

374
00:14:45,329 --> 00:14:42,610
them in most cases you said that they

375
00:14:47,699 --> 00:14:45,339
nutritionally failed just about on all

376
00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:47,709
counts except for one particular one and

377
00:14:52,650 --> 00:14:50,110
you also criticized them mostly for

378
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:52,660
their upsell so they would say you you

379
00:14:56,940 --> 00:14:54,250
might need more nutrients and we happen

380
00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:56,950
to have them here which you can buy so

381
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:58,330
can you tell us a little bit about that

382
00:15:02,730 --> 00:15:00,160
and I'm also interested in the response

383
00:15:05,579 --> 00:15:02,740
that you received and whether anything's

384
00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:05,589
changed in terms of pharmacies now have

385
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:07,390
they removed them or modified their

386
00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:09,730
practices it would these are mainly meal

387
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:11,740
replacements so you know typically

388
00:15:15,510 --> 00:15:13,690
people have seen TV ads or

389
00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:15,520
of sale material we can help you lose

390
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:17,620
weight and then they're introduced the

391
00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:19,510
consultants at the pharmacy who will

392
00:15:23,010 --> 00:15:21,100
develop a plan for them and then they

393
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:23,020
buy the meal replacements which is for

394
00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:25,090
milkshakes often or some sort of

395
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:27,460
powdered soup and then of course yes you

396
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:29,350
mentioned there's the upsell of you know

397
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:31,810
you might need some more bitumens with a

398
00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:35,410
few more nutrients or some more salts or

399
00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:38,080
whatever it is look we said it what we

400
00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:39,700
call shadow shoppers which is sort of

401
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:41,800
undercover people just to go as a normal

402
00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:43,570
consumer would be to see what they found

403
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:45,540
and then we also had a panel of

404
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:47,650
nutritionists and people who really knew

405
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:49,600
to actually look at the contents of this

406
00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:52,450
to see what they would do and yeah our

407
00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:55,030
concerns were twofold one that often

408
00:16:00,270 --> 00:15:56,710
nutritionally these things are really

409
00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:00,280
lacking but also the lack of training in

410
00:16:06,270 --> 00:16:04,270
terms of the so-called experts on the

411
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:06,280
scene who really were just sales the

412
00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:08,890
system's rebranded as some sort of

413
00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:11,350
expertise and as we all know issues of

414
00:16:16,290 --> 00:16:14,440
weight loss are multifactorial and you

415
00:16:17,970 --> 00:16:16,300
might get someone to lose weight in one

416
00:16:20,250 --> 00:16:17,980
particular program but it's an issue of

417
00:16:21,510 --> 00:16:20,260
what happens over time and that's where

418
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:21,520
we felt that these things were really

419
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:24,730
lacking and the real underlying point

420
00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:26,350
here is the question of trust you know

421
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:29,500
pharmacists you know set themselves up

422
00:16:35,490 --> 00:16:32,800
and are many cases highly trusted in

423
00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:35,500
fact all that the surveys of trust /

424
00:16:40,730 --> 00:16:37,180
pharmacists right at the top they are

425
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:40,740
trusted and we felt that this was

426
00:16:46,010 --> 00:16:43,090
something that actually would Road

427
00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:46,020
consumers trust in them if they knew

428
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:49,300
really what was going on so has there

429
00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:51,130
been changed I suppose there's been a

430
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:53,740
lack of confidence in the product so

431
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:55,570
that must have hurt some of them some of

432
00:17:00,120 --> 00:16:57,610
the providers of these things you know

433
00:17:02,370 --> 00:17:00,130
went kicking and screaming and we always

434
00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:02,380
get long letters full of references to

435
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:04,900
this that and the other but okay that's

436
00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:07,240
2x yeah yeah well duh put our people

437
00:17:12,179 --> 00:17:09,790
here are fantastic because they can send

438
00:17:14,370 --> 00:17:12,189
back longer lessons but not references

439
00:17:16,199 --> 00:17:14,380
with more Royal Colleges in him and

440
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:16,209
actually often we that's it we never

441
00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:19,510
hear tickety-boo from them again so as

442
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:21,670
far as a bit I don't think there's any

443
00:17:25,330 --> 00:17:24,010
regular tree changes or moves flowing

444
00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:25,340
from this which can sometime

445
00:17:30,910 --> 00:17:28,600
follow as a result of our inquiries but

446
00:17:33,790 --> 00:17:30,920
certainly I think they've pulled their

447
00:17:36,190 --> 00:17:33,800
heads in a bed and while this was a

448
00:17:39,070 --> 00:17:36,200
profitable area I think they'd probably

449
00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:39,080
face a few more questions yeah yeah I'll

450
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:40,580
just show you this quickly I don't know

451
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:42,710
if you wimps this before that we sent

452
00:17:47,170 --> 00:17:45,080
that out earlier in the year and we

453
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:47,180
published it in our magazine the skeptic

454
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:49,130
it's an open letter to the pharmacist of

455
00:17:53,890 --> 00:17:51,530
Australia basically saying look there's

456
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:53,900
an awful lot of dodgy stuff in your

457
00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:55,850
pharmacist now especially these devices

458
00:18:01,120 --> 00:17:57,950
i hope the ear candles yes here I've

459
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:01,130
seen them as well which and that this

460
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:02,720
other brochure I have right here which

461
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:05,210
is directly out of pharmacy most

462
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:07,910
pharmacies now that we check out

463
00:18:13,870 --> 00:18:10,010
ourselves we'll sell these ear candles

464
00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:13,880
and it's staggering because even when

465
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:15,800
questioned the people in the pharmacy

466
00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:17,930
themselves either don't know or will

467
00:18:21,850 --> 00:18:20,300
recommend them or in some cases they'll

468
00:18:23,050 --> 00:18:21,860
say we know that they're no good we

469
00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:23,060
wouldn't recommend them but they sell

470
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:24,830
really well so what are we going to do

471
00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:27,020
about it yeah and there have been some

472
00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:28,760
fairly mainstream warnings about these

473
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:30,500
things you do I think you know you know

474
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:35,120
the authorities so yeah look it's it's

475
00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:36,830
an interesting one pharmacist because

476
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:38,840
they enjoy a certain level of protection

477
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:40,370
you know that they can keep out

478
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,760
competition so they have for that they

479
00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:45,440
enjoy protections that other businesses

480
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,440
don't do they enjoy a public standing

481
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:50,720
that others don't but how much brother

482
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:53,210
can some elements within them keep

483
00:18:59,880 --> 00:18:55,910
pushing the envelope in hopi ear candles

484
00:19:02,380 --> 00:18:59,890
or shonky diet plan or you know even

485
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:02,390
things like having a consultant

486
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:05,990
naturopath people doing iridology of

487
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:07,970
their pharmacy's a lot of pharmacies

488
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:09,770
will have this come every week every

489
00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:11,840
second week or whatever and talk to our

490
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:13,160
euro dollar just these people are

491
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:14,720
pretending to be doctors I don't know if

492
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:17,330
you know about iridology itself well I

493
00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:19,370
know that you know something I iridology

494
00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:21,740
says $13 and people say well that's not

495
00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:23,060
going to do you any harm but of course

496
00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:24,910
then you get less ood in for regular

497
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:27,740
consultations and goodness knows what

498
00:19:31,810 --> 00:19:29,810
sort of health information will

499
00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:31,820
allegedly be imparted you and what might

500
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:34,160
distract someone from really seeking a

501
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:36,850
more professional opinion black to us if

502
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:38,370
it's a really

503
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,970
sad state of affairs that pharmacies

504
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:44,240
should go downhill so markedly in our

505
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:46,950
estimation anyway when you can walk in

506
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,200
and get advice which is akin to which

507
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:51,840
but I've well look I would just say keep

508
00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:53,160
pushing it we keep pushing the

509
00:19:56,690 --> 00:19:55,080
pharmacist from the commercial angle

510
00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:56,700
yeah but you know it's certainly a good

511
00:20:02,240 --> 00:19:59,220
case in the pharmacy guild are very

512
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:02,250
powerful you know they should measures

513
00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:05,220
we seek to rein in this kind of behavior

514
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:08,100
if it seems to be in conflict with what

515
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:10,710
are their stated aims and ambitions well

516
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:11,910
that is true they do have a code of

517
00:20:15,410 --> 00:20:13,770
conduct and they code of conduct does

518
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:15,420
state that they should be selling things

519
00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:17,160
that for which there is evidence base

520
00:20:24,049 --> 00:20:20,820
and for example in this situation where

521
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:24,059
there's a homeopathy placed next to a

522
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:28,770
paracetamol for children I'm surely

523
00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:30,150
that's breaching their code of conduct

524
00:20:35,030 --> 00:20:32,220
because as you know homeopathy is

525
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:35,040
basically water or sugar pills and it

526
00:20:41,180 --> 00:20:37,140
certainly has no efficacy compared to a

527
00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:41,190
paracetamol but to have have no I use

528
00:20:48,770 --> 00:20:45,059
the term again witchcraft next to tested

529
00:20:51,020 --> 00:20:48,780
and tried and true medical things like

530
00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:51,030
paracetamol it's it's outrageous because

531
00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:52,860
the person coming in off the street why

532
00:20:57,290 --> 00:20:55,500
should they know you know they've trust

533
00:20:58,580 --> 00:20:57,300
their pharmacy to that it wasn't good

534
00:21:01,100 --> 00:20:58,590
advice but I've been looking at this

535
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:01,110
product which says teething relief you

536
00:21:06,820 --> 00:21:04,260
know doesn't say homeopathy brow well

537
00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:06,830
that sounds it's sort of quite akin to a

538
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:09,630
respectable German pharmacy let's not

539
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,250
exactly decide they are well he was a

540
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:13,200
family doesn't I don't think homeopathy

541
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:16,110
on the on that face side facing us now

542
00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:18,620
but it is it's tammie oh yeah they do

543
00:21:23,419 --> 00:21:21,300
well yeah look again we're all about

544
00:21:24,919 --> 00:21:23,429
labeling and things being really clear

545
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:24,929
so people can you know it's up for

546
00:21:28,990 --> 00:21:26,640
people to choose what they want to do

547
00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:29,000
but that one they need to have you know

548
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:32,550
maximum amount of clear honest deviation

549
00:21:36,350 --> 00:21:35,130
and you know without seeing the whole of

550
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:36,360
that it's hard to say but I certainly

551
00:21:40,730 --> 00:21:38,910
wouldn't suggest you know again natural

552
00:21:42,590 --> 00:21:40,740
I mean we to come across this natural

553
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:42,600
all the time in terms of food you know

554
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:45,210
oh it's natural or it's fresh or it's

555
00:21:49,550 --> 00:21:47,640
bio this that and the other I mean

556
00:21:50,659 --> 00:21:49,560
they're meaningless terms because anyone

557
00:21:53,419 --> 00:21:50,669
can use them they're really

558
00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:53,429
no yes effective control over them so

559
00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:56,070
you know whenever it says natural nature

560
00:22:02,349 --> 00:21:58,470
that's when you really need to turn on

561
00:22:05,149 --> 00:22:02,359
your x-ray glasses I was just going to

562
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:05,159
change the subject to something that we

563
00:22:09,409 --> 00:22:07,710
really enjoy which are the sharkies now

564
00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:09,419
what I want to say about the sharpies

565
00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:11,820
which are the equivalent to our bent

566
00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:13,950
spoon is where every year we have the

567
00:22:17,330 --> 00:22:15,480
vent spoon award which we give to the

568
00:22:20,599 --> 00:22:17,340
greatest perpetrator of paranormal or

569
00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:20,609
pseudo scientific piffle you have the

570
00:22:26,029 --> 00:22:23,070
Xiang keys and i must say that they are

571
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:26,039
very well reported every year a lot of

572
00:22:32,899 --> 00:22:30,720
the the major news networks and the

573
00:22:35,299 --> 00:22:32,909
papers will pick up on the sharkies i

574
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:35,309
think that's very successful for you it

575
00:22:38,330 --> 00:22:36,809
seems like only yesterday that we were

576
00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:38,340
handing out lemons to companies like

577
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:40,830
coca-cola Amatil and citibank but

578
00:22:44,899 --> 00:22:43,289
already a year has passed and 2009 has

579
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:44,909
presented us with a completely new batch

580
00:22:48,409 --> 00:22:47,369
of chunky products and services let's

581
00:22:52,580 --> 00:22:48,419
take a look at some of this year's

582
00:22:54,769 --> 00:22:52,590
winners it probably comes as no surprise

583
00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:54,779
that the cosmetics industry is among the

584
00:22:59,119 --> 00:22:56,820
first in the firing line as it continues

585
00:23:00,739 --> 00:22:59,129
to mislead misinform and misrepresent

586
00:23:03,019 --> 00:23:00,749
the abilities of beauty products to lift

587
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:03,029
decrease and smooth but the award itself

588
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:06,090
goes to lauriol why because they're

589
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:07,330
worth it

590
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:09,490
they always use soothing language

591
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:12,130
reassuring language in a seductive leg

592
00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:15,430
flexing leave it in our hands don't pop

593
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:18,820
your pretty head about this foodstuffs

594
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:20,890
also showed well this year with shank is

595
00:23:24,540 --> 00:23:22,650
going to liquid stocks made from powder

596
00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:24,550
presumably saving you the trouble of

597
00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:29,080
adding water for yourself and uncle

598
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:30,820
tobys for trying to pull the wall over

599
00:23:35,370 --> 00:23:32,530
it's customers eyes with some remarkably

600
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:35,380
deceptive packaging practices not quite

601
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:39,310
as deep as the old you get more thing

602
00:23:44,730 --> 00:23:43,120
said less Siri close to home travelers

603
00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:44,740
are the ones being stung by Qantas

604
00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:46,390
though the spirit of Australia is by no

605
00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:48,430
means the only airline that's happy to

606
00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:50,080
let credit card companies take the rap

607
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:52,030
for its own price gouging on surcharges

608
00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:54,970
it is however the worst offender of

609
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:56,980
course the shonky awards couldn't be

610
00:24:00,540 --> 00:23:58,450
complete without at least one dodgy

611
00:24:02,850 --> 00:24:00,550
piece of hardware and this year we have

612
00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:02,860
two on offer our first lemon in this

613
00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:04,600
category goes the energy-saving plug

614
00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:06,340
that doesn't appear to save you anything

615
00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:08,620
while the second is decisively won by a

616
00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:10,180
food processor that quite literally

617
00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:11,920
comes apart at the side of a block of

618
00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:15,790
cheese from shrinking Serbs and hidden

619
00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:17,560
charges to false claims and mechanical

620
00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:20,200
failures the 2009 chunkies lineup serves

621
00:24:23,610 --> 00:24:21,700
to remind us the companies will never

622
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:23,620
get tired of finding you and interesting

623
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:25,120
ways to con you out of your hard-earned

624
00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:27,310
money so it's just as well then but we

625
00:24:34,510 --> 00:24:28,780
never get tired of telling you what

626
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:45,050
Lawrence Grayson choice TV yeah well

627
00:24:49,370 --> 00:24:47,310
thank you I mean it is because i think

628
00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:49,380
it strikes a chord and chunky is

629
00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:51,420
actually great australian term it's a

630
00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:52,740
great do you know and it's onomatopoeia

631
00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:54,870
really you don't even need to know this

632
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,340
is anything in shonky it can't be very

633
00:25:01,880 --> 00:24:58,080
good it suggested it's a house of cards

634
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:01,890
and will fall down and look the you know

635
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:04,580
I suppose the basic thing of a shonky is

636
00:25:09,950 --> 00:25:08,370
that it's not what it states to be but

637
00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:09,960
it really needs a bit of star quality

638
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:13,230
too so does that element of hypocrisy in

639
00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:14,730
terms of you know people saying well

640
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:16,470
we've come out with this new size of

641
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:18,510
cereal package to save you money hey

642
00:25:24,350 --> 00:25:21,330
it's smaller how can it save us money

643
00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:24,360
you know or the airline that you know

644
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:26,100
says that has a massive credit card

645
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:27,930
surcharge and says that that's they're

646
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:29,940
still losing money on the deal you know

647
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:32,130
it's that kind of little twist that gets

648
00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:35,430
it to there but chunkiness is also yeah

649
00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:37,350
it you know we try and test things in

650
00:25:41,060 --> 00:25:38,790
science and there was a great one that

651
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:41,070
we had dude love this year which was for

652
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:43,530
the region micro plug now this thing

653
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:46,020
could solve all of the you know global

654
00:25:49,670 --> 00:25:47,610
warming problems overnight if it

655
00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:49,680
actually worked today like you plug into

656
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:51,030
the wall and you plug your electrical

657
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:52,410
device into there and it's thirty

658
00:25:58,340 --> 00:25:55,110
percent energy savings you know how to

659
00:26:02,810 --> 00:25:58,350
add a flick of a switch well we tested

660
00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:02,820
it with you know Hoover's and fans and

661
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:05,580
fridges and didn't find anything at all

662
00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:08,130
with a drill a handheld drill we found

663
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:11,100
five percent saving fairly miniscule

664
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:12,510
it's hard to measure these things so

665
00:26:15,470 --> 00:26:14,220
yeah it'll be meaningless but you know

666
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:15,480
cost you one hundred and fifty dollars

667
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:16,770
to buy this thing so you'd have to have

668
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:19,770
the drill on non-stop for ten years to

669
00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:22,530
make back the purchase price but what

670
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:23,880
was interesting when we challenge the

671
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:25,410
importers they said well you're testing

672
00:26:29,060 --> 00:26:26,850
it wrong and again I'm sure you hear

673
00:26:31,060 --> 00:26:29,070
this all our you're testing it wrong

674
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:31,070
yeah doesn't work like yeah

675
00:26:34,810 --> 00:26:33,230
does my brother yeah and then they said

676
00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:34,820
well it will send you some evidence we

677
00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:36,950
thought that's good and they sent us the

678
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:38,840
electricity bills from the rich rich

679
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:42,289
fried chicken shop in seoul which

680
00:26:47,529 --> 00:26:44,480
apparently had attached these things to

681
00:26:50,169 --> 00:26:47,539
express and they sent the utility bill

682
00:26:52,029 --> 00:26:50,179
you know in korean I'm afraid it was you

683
00:26:55,330 --> 00:26:52,039
know it was but it was such a brilliant

684
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:55,340
blatant bit of substantiation you don't

685
00:27:00,159 --> 00:26:58,159
have to frame it Richard's chicken shots

686
00:27:01,629 --> 00:27:00,169
in the save the world business

687
00:27:03,310 --> 00:27:01,639
interesting there's there's something

688
00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:03,320
where we can cross over because that's

689
00:27:07,289 --> 00:27:05,000
exactly the sort of thing Australian

690
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:07,299
skeptics will investigate to energy

691
00:27:11,619 --> 00:27:09,710
polarizes fuel polarisers fill savers

692
00:27:14,649 --> 00:27:11,629
energy devices like that we have on our

693
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:14,659
on our team our chief investigator in

694
00:27:19,659 --> 00:27:16,490
fact is a rocket scientist a real rocket

695
00:27:21,789 --> 00:27:19,669
scientist and he loves nothing more than

696
00:27:23,889 --> 00:27:21,799
going after these sort of devices in

697
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:23,899
fact Peter Brock the racing car driver

698
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:25,850
the late Peter Brock won the bent spoon

699
00:27:30,129 --> 00:27:27,850
a number of years ago because he was

700
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:30,139
publicizing pushing a fuel polarizer

701
00:27:34,299 --> 00:27:32,000
which was basically a magnetic clip you

702
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:34,309
put in your car around the fuel line in

703
00:27:39,549 --> 00:27:37,279
shonky talk about Sean oh look it and

704
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:39,559
they'll keep coming and again we had a

705
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:41,210
lot of the fuel ones come out would work

706
00:27:45,639 --> 00:27:43,370
when petrol was more expensive you or so

707
00:27:47,499 --> 00:27:45,649
ago and doubtless they'll they'll come

708
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:47,509
back but you know what they know it's

709
00:27:50,740 --> 00:27:48,769
kind of like we were was warned about

710
00:27:52,659 --> 00:27:50,750
the scam emails you know people trying

711
00:27:55,570 --> 00:27:52,669
to get your banking details but it's

712
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:55,580
with these scams and it unsure it's the

713
00:27:59,409 --> 00:27:56,960
same with the paranormal that the cost

714
00:28:01,899 --> 00:27:59,419
of entry is very low you can just send

715
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:01,909
an email or proclaim something the risk

716
00:28:05,950 --> 00:28:04,129
of being caught is is very low because

717
00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:05,960
the agencies don't really take much

718
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:07,340
action against it but the potential

719
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:09,289
returns are actually very high yes

720
00:28:12,430 --> 00:28:11,330
because you managed to latch on someone

721
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:12,440
who's going to send you their bank

722
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:14,870
details or someone who's going to you

723
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:17,120
know give all whatever the money it is

724
00:28:20,499 --> 00:28:18,799
for whatever you're selling you know

725
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:20,509
it's it's a great business and it's when

726
00:28:24,879 --> 00:28:22,970
you look at the you know incentives and

727
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:24,889
the disincentives that's when you're

728
00:28:27,940 --> 00:28:25,970
going to find these kind of activities

729
00:28:29,470 --> 00:28:27,950
breaking out so it really is this

730
00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:29,480
question of regulation and people who

731
00:28:32,529 --> 00:28:30,590
actually get to sit on it and do

732
00:28:34,299 --> 00:28:32,539
something now i suppose what we were in

733
00:28:37,149 --> 00:28:34,309
is really education to try and tell

734
00:28:40,330 --> 00:28:37,159
people hang on think twice be a bit

735
00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:40,340
skeptical i was very interested to look

736
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:42,470
at your website choice condor day you

737
00:28:46,050 --> 00:28:43,810
and I was quite impressed by

738
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:46,060
choice TV these little videos that

739
00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:47,440
you've produced and whacked on the earth

740
00:28:52,410 --> 00:28:50,560
via YouTube and you don't pull any

741
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:52,420
punches you say you stay quite clearly

742
00:28:59,280 --> 00:28:54,250
look out for these people trying to con

743
00:29:03,990 --> 00:28:59,290
you and so on do you do not fear a legal

744
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:04,000
action all the time no because we check

745
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:06,940
and recheck and recheck again and then

746
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:09,010
we're very sure where we come from

747
00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:10,840
there's only one person what is one

748
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:12,700
celebrated case of someone who's tried

749
00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:14,950
to take us to court was when with it was

750
00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:17,380
a gas heater that we claim could become

751
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:19,180
a potential flamethrower because the

752
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:20,710
hose wasn't properly attached to the

753
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:23,500
heater and this became quite a big legal

754
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:24,910
test case that's still in the law

755
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:27,070
textbooks for undergraduates but you

756
00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:29,710
know we won yeah because we proved it

757
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:31,150
was in the public interest and I think

758
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:32,650
that's actually where we always like we

759
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:34,300
can show that it's in the public

760
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:36,370
interest so we have various defenses at

761
00:29:41,790 --> 00:29:39,070
law that we can you know push the

762
00:29:45,660 --> 00:29:41,800
envelope but I think like you too we use

763
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:45,670
the power of satire and humor because

764
00:29:51,180 --> 00:29:47,980
many of our targets which perhaps

765
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:51,190
corporate Australia and corporate global

766
00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:53,170
you know they're very thin-skinned they

767
00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:54,700
have no sense of humor you know that

768
00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:56,710
really is their Achilles heel and I'm

769
00:30:00,540 --> 00:29:58,570
sure it's often with those people you go

770
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:00,550
today they have no sense of for you none

771
00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:03,130
and that's what makes that shows them up

772
00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:05,320
for the for the folks frauds hypocrites

773
00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:07,420
that they really are yeah yeah but

774
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:10,630
speaking of satire I loved one of the

775
00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:12,370
satires that you did for this year's

776
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:13,870
donkeys which was the cosmetics

777
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:16,000
companies where you had cosmetic

778
00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:18,910
companies make up and featuring

779
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:23,230
profi corby and I understand that that's

780
00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:24,730
coming from the fact that they just get

781
00:30:28,020 --> 00:30:26,200
all these scientific terms and put them

782
00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:28,030
in a hat virtually and makeup you know

783
00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:31,630
this special active ingredient we've

784
00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:33,640
taken trace elements for random exotic

785
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:35,320
sounding plant and combined it with some

786
00:30:40,140 --> 00:30:37,810
generic creamy goop to create profiel be

787
00:30:42,510 --> 00:30:40,150
a totally made-up name the mixing sound

788
00:30:43,980 --> 00:30:42,520
really scientific here are some computer

789
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:43,990
graphics that falsely suggest it works

790
00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:45,760
on a cellular level and an airbrush

791
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:47,230
picture of a model who's probably had

792
00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:49,690
everything botoxed anyway with phrases

793
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:51,550
like clinically proven and an arbitrary

794
00:30:54,660 --> 00:30:53,290
list of effects you'd like to think this

795
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:54,670
is worth the staggering amount of money

796
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:56,250
we're charging for it but

797
00:31:03,020 --> 00:30:59,600
not cosmetics companies we make up

798
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:03,030
but surely you would be at risk of libel

799
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:05,190
defamation for something like that well

800
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:07,010
with that video we didn't actually

801
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:10,410
mention a particular brand so that was a

802
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:13,530
general we did give the shonky that was

803
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:14,910
the video and you know if you can edit

804
00:31:20,060 --> 00:31:17,970
it in it's very funny we gave we were

805
00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:20,070
complaining about the abuse of science

806
00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:21,990
in terms of a labouring of cosmetics and

807
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:23,240
there's one that's come up with a

808
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:26,640
neutral ilion in terms of a shampoo you

809
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:27,930
know and again we'd say well this sounds

810
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:29,570
like it's about one hundred and fiftieth

811
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,010
element on the periodic table you know

812
00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:34,080
that sounds like something it exists for

813
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:36,150
a nanosecond in reactor but in fact all

814
00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:38,210
it does is make your hair less frizzy

815
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:40,590
there they are brilliant at coming up

816
00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:42,330
with the terms and it all actually goes

817
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:44,040
back to the pons institute if you

818
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:46,290
remember people with white coats you

819
00:31:49,220 --> 00:31:47,940
know people think are that science they

820
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:49,230
know what they're doing that must you're

821
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:51,120
good yeah I mean it yeah I mean it's

822
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,840
hilarious of course and that's that's

823
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:57,120
why we we love to poke a bit of fun at

824
00:32:00,590 --> 00:31:58,650
them yes I've always wanted to get a job

825
00:32:02,270 --> 00:32:00,600
at the pons Institute but I ended up

826
00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:02,280
with a heart Research Institute it's not

827
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:05,180
quite as interesting you know yeah um

828
00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:07,260
can we talk a little bit about the

829
00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:08,820
regulation of these things because

830
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:10,470
obviously the government has laws in

831
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:12,870
place to prevent people getting harmed

832
00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:16,310
by products that make outrageous claims

833
00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:19,350
we have actually made complaints to the

834
00:32:24,170 --> 00:32:21,300
TGA through the complaint resolution

835
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:24,180
panel about things as dangerous as

836
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:27,210
homeopathic immunization and then the

837
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:29,010
complaint has SAT there for a few months

838
00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:30,870
and then just dropped off and you never

839
00:32:36,020 --> 00:32:33,270
hear from it again how do you go about

840
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:36,030
dealing with you know government boards

841
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:37,740
in terms of making complaints yeah

842
00:32:41,530 --> 00:32:39,960
normally I mean the H will see the

843
00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:41,540
consumer and competition commission

844
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:43,950
normally people complain but the TGA

845
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:46,650
look we've done those as well I suppose

846
00:32:50,660 --> 00:32:49,080
that we put in a letter wouldn't

847
00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:50,670
purchase a letter we've put in a body of

848
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:52,200
research that probably goes with it

849
00:32:56,690 --> 00:32:53,880
because we'll probably have looked into

850
00:32:58,430 --> 00:32:56,700
this certainly green claims is one we're

851
00:33:02,450 --> 00:32:58,440
looking at again and that sort of often

852
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,460
touches terms of scientific abuse

853
00:33:07,790 --> 00:33:04,320
look you know complaints procedures

854
00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:07,800
often the regulators have a fairly you

855
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:10,230
know glacial process that has to be gone

856
00:33:14,510 --> 00:33:12,450
through so you have to be patient often

857
00:33:16,610 --> 00:33:14,520
we're disappointed too you know that

858
00:33:18,260 --> 00:33:16,620
yeah yeah they don't always like to take

859
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:18,270
on the kind of work and targets that we

860
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:20,400
do but then sometimes you know you do

861
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:21,600
get lucky and they're the people with

862
00:33:26,150 --> 00:33:23,880
teeth so what would you recommend that

863
00:33:28,250 --> 00:33:26,160
consumers watch out for obviously they

864
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:28,260
should join choice well of joining

865
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:31,080
choice does help what I tell you what my

866
00:33:36,650 --> 00:33:33,930
advice is use your intuition you know I

867
00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:36,660
think deep within all of us there are

868
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:38,520
the warning bells that go off and we

869
00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:39,990
have very good detectors and you just

870
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:43,260
need to keep those finely honed and such

871
00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:45,090
a cliche but it's you know it's that

872
00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:46,740
thing if it seems too good to be true it

873
00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:48,660
must be you know I'm afraid it's true

874
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:51,060
but what people that happen is that

875
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:53,490
they're their wish-fulfillment they

876
00:33:59,060 --> 00:33:56,340
believe that you know there is more to

877
00:34:01,040 --> 00:33:59,070
the spirit world or there is a chance of

878
00:34:03,140 --> 00:34:01,050
making a million bucks from 50 Cent's

879
00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:03,150
you know that actually will give

880
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:05,070
away a few of the council yeah yeah it

881
00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:07,250
pushes away that sort of natural

882
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:11,400
skepticism which we not only have but we

883
00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:13,650
need to foster and encourage not just

884
00:34:16,610 --> 00:34:15,000
win ourselves but others you know

885
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:16,620
because skepticism was a good thing not

886
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:19,110
don't take things face value necessary

887
00:34:22,610 --> 00:34:21,030
or more to the point know what you can

888
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:22,620
take at face value you know what you

889
00:34:26,990 --> 00:34:24,960
can't and I suppose that would be my

890
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:27,000
advice well Christopher what a pleasure

891
00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:28,650
it's been to come here and talk with you

892
00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:30,300
today Christopher's in the media

893
00:34:36,410 --> 00:34:33,030
spokesman for choice magazine and I can

894
00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:36,420
really recommend choice of WWE choice

895
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:38,070
comdata you there's lots of good

896
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:39,540
information on the website you can

897
00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:41,610
subscribe to the magazine and also get

898
00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:44,460
the magazine at news agencies oh yeah

899
00:34:47,870 --> 00:34:46,470
online is the big growth area online

900
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:47,880
that's that the preference of course

901
00:35:01,470 --> 00:34:49,530
well Christopher soon thank you very

902
00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:04,420
are your friends telling you that your

903
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:06,590
lack of a love life is because Mars

904
00:35:11,380 --> 00:35:08,810
isn't rising in the house of Jupiter and

905
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:11,390
that it's just like a Sagittarius to

906
00:35:16,330 --> 00:35:13,970
question things of Suzanne Somers and

907
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:16,340
Jenny McCarthy become the sole source of

908
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:18,710
medical advice for your mother-in-law

909
00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:20,810
have you had to argue the fact that the

910
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:23,750
efficacy of coffee enemas has not been

911
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:26,150
proven by science as the use of the

912
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:28,730
evolution is just a theory argument

913
00:35:34,330 --> 00:35:30,650
driven you to the point of telling your

914
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:34,340
co-workers to okay stop using gravity

915
00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:36,800
then as dealing with dowsers arguing

916
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:38,950
with anti-vaxxers harping on homeopathy

917
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:41,450
squirreling with collation squabbling

918
00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:43,610
with scientology and bickering with

919
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:46,420
Bigfoot left you wondering what can I do

920
00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:52,160
to fight the wing then head on over to

921
00:35:58,359 --> 00:35:53,660
the James Randi Educational Foundation

922
00:36:00,910 --> 00:35:58,369
and ww Randy o RG and contribute to the

923
00:36:03,070 --> 00:36:00,920
season of recent fundraising campaign by

924
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:03,080
clicking on the donate button every

925
00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:05,210
dollar you give helps fight whew the

926
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:07,820
world over don't just get frustrated get

927
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:13,750
involved donate at ww are a nd Iorg

928
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:15,230
channel

929
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:20,240
oh that I do is see oh and now we bring

930
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:22,190
you an interview conducted over 10 years

931
00:36:27,790 --> 00:36:25,130
ago by dr. Paul Willis with james randi

932
00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:27,800
the subject is very topical at the

933
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:47,930
people affected by a serious disease

934
00:36:52,849 --> 00:36:50,160
illness or fauna and desperate for a

935
00:36:55,339 --> 00:36:52,859
solution a vulnerable to exploitation by

936
00:36:56,930 --> 00:36:55,349
quacks and charlatans this is the case

937
00:36:59,509 --> 00:36:56,940
for autistic children and their parents

938
00:37:02,059 --> 00:36:59,519
and a technique called facilitated

939
00:37:03,740 --> 00:37:02,069
communication this technique came under

940
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:03,750
the skeptical eye of magician James

941
00:37:07,309 --> 00:37:05,730
Randi and he witnessed a number of

942
00:37:09,710 --> 00:37:07,319
autistic children who could not

943
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:09,720
communicate with the outside world and

944
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:10,970
yet the facilitating communication

945
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,500
people tell us that these people have

946
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:16,079
great poets and they can do mathematics

947
00:37:20,420 --> 00:37:18,450
and make them write essays and session

948
00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:20,430
and the way they do it is to sit before

949
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:23,190
a communicator a keyboard or adjust a

950
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:24,960
chart of alphabetic letters and numbers

951
00:37:32,660 --> 00:37:29,010
and the facilitated communicator holds

952
00:37:35,059 --> 00:37:32,670
on to the 15 kids hand the kid can be

953
00:37:36,890 --> 00:37:35,069
laying on the floor and they extend the

954
00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:36,900
arm up above the edge of the table and

955
00:37:41,839 --> 00:37:39,660
pack around on the keyboard or on the

956
00:37:44,539 --> 00:37:41,849
chart and the children are spelling out

957
00:37:46,579 --> 00:37:44,549
wonderful thing randy was invited to

958
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,589
witness facilitated communication at

959
00:37:51,650 --> 00:37:48,720
work and investigate the possibility

960
00:37:53,359 --> 00:37:51,660
that autistic children a telepathic will

961
00:37:56,299 --> 00:37:53,369
call the facilitated communicator

962
00:37:58,039 --> 00:37:56,309
Lawrence I went there and I quote if you

963
00:38:00,650 --> 00:37:58,049
satisfy me that facilitated

964
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:00,660
communication actually does work then

965
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:02,130
we'll talk about the possibility of

966
00:38:05,509 --> 00:38:03,930
telepathy general did there's no need to

967
00:38:08,359 --> 00:38:05,519
that mccready it works we know their

968
00:38:11,569 --> 00:38:08,369
works I made up before I went a bunch of

969
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:11,579
cards with random words on the fastest

970
00:38:17,509 --> 00:38:16,049
car bowl cup and then with the slow day

971
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:17,519
jus sittin there and with the child

972
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,470
sitting there I reached in and took

973
00:38:23,809 --> 00:38:21,359
Leonard random turned it over if it said

974
00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:23,819
on it car and I would say to the child

975
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:27,180
the word is cars CA our car and show the

976
00:38:31,849 --> 00:38:29,700
child the card I would say now I want

977
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:31,859
you with in Florence's help would you

978
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,410
type out the word current Clarence would

979
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,720
take the hand and CA are I would come

980
00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:38,400
out on the take we do this eight or ten

981
00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:40,200
times and it would take now we're going

982
00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:41,910
to continue the experiment that's one

983
00:38:47,870 --> 00:38:45,390
change only I want Florence to leave the

984
00:38:50,029 --> 00:38:47,880
room for our challenge of 15 and then

985
00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:50,039
come back into the room so she'd leave

986
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:51,990
the room and while she's out of the room

987
00:38:56,020 --> 00:38:54,240
I would select a card run say to the

988
00:38:59,890 --> 00:38:56,030
child the word is

989
00:39:01,960 --> 00:38:59,900
ask it bas ke t basket for I should go

990
00:39:07,180 --> 00:39:01,970
back into the room and guess what the

991
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:07,190
child tight for man woman brother sister

992
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:09,650
and when I said no I'm sorry all of

993
00:39:13,330 --> 00:39:12,050
those were wrong the facility looked out

994
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:13,340
at the keyboard with a determined look

995
00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:15,590
on her face and using the child can type

996
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:17,900
that a method which read approximately I

997
00:39:21,490 --> 00:39:19,580
don't like this man from Florida

998
00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:21,500
florencia he's tried to take you away

999
00:39:25,630 --> 00:39:23,540
from me you're my only connection with

1000
00:39:29,110 --> 00:39:25,640
the world of course he send him away

1001
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:29,120
he's a very bad man now I don't think

1002
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,800
that Florence think that she is doing

1003
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:32,960
the Tigers I honestly think that

1004
00:39:37,450 --> 00:39:35,090
flourished believe but the child is

1005
00:39:40,270 --> 00:39:37,460
doing the Titan I was hope that the

1006
00:39:42,610 --> 00:39:40,280
father of this little boy and Egyptian

1007
00:39:45,370 --> 00:39:42,620
deciding to mr. Randy I'm not a cow from

1008
00:39:48,010 --> 00:39:45,380
the expired that will have new ph DS but

1009
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:48,020
these people did and they tell me that

1010
00:39:52,270 --> 00:39:50,030
they're helping me and I don't know what

1011
00:39:55,090 --> 00:39:52,280
to say I took them by the hand and I

1012
00:39:56,890 --> 00:39:55,100
said get out of it it's not working your

1013
00:39:58,780 --> 00:39:56,900
child is not communicating with you and

1014
00:40:00,580 --> 00:39:58,790
the tears came up in his eyes he said

1015
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:00,590
yes I've known that for a long time but

1016
00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:02,990
I can't accept it we've been trying to

1017
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:05,480
reach our travel for 78 years now it

1018
00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:07,370
just can't do it and I thought this was

1019
00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:21,080
hi everyone this is andy Kaiser Richard

1020
00:40:25,310 --> 00:40:23,190
Saunders was nice enough to let me

1021
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:25,320
interrupt the skeptic zone to tell you

1022
00:40:30,490 --> 00:40:27,690
about another gust of wind in the

1023
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:30,500
maelstrom of worldwide critical thought

1024
00:40:36,020 --> 00:40:33,540
digital bits skeptic is a podcast

1025
00:40:38,420 --> 00:40:36,030
dedicated to skepticism and critical

1026
00:40:41,350 --> 00:40:38,430
thinking in our world of New Age

1027
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:41,360
religion and credulous pop culture I

1028
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:44,610
myself write a few articles but most are

1029
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:47,040
written by everyone else and they're

1030
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:49,920
paid for that effort if you're an expert

1031
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:52,650
in your field if you need a forum or if

1032
00:40:57,020 --> 00:40:54,420
you want to make an impact on not just

1033
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:57,030
the skeptical community but the world at

1034
00:41:02,540 --> 00:41:00,720
large I'd like to talk to you or if you

1035
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:02,550
just like to listen to a quality

1036
00:41:10,610 --> 00:41:05,570
skeptical minded podcast that's great to

1037
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:10,620
find digital bit skeptic at wwd be

1038
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:23,380
join us now for drinking skeptically in

1039
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:32,210
the think tank well from the back room

1040
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:34,250
of the downstairs area in a forgotten

1041
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:37,610
corner with dying vending machines and

1042
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:39,950
Hogan machines it's the think tank

1043
00:41:47,980 --> 00:41:44,930
cheers everybody excuse me click it over

1044
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:47,990
your head or something poor on imaginary

1045
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:50,690
glass I have what an interesting week

1046
00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:52,250
it's mean and skepticism ladies and

1047
00:41:55,210 --> 00:41:53,990
gentlemen and I'd like to kick off

1048
00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:55,220
straight away with that very interesting

1049
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:58,610
and bizarre story of that man in Belgium

1050
00:42:06,430 --> 00:42:02,000
who has apparently been in a coma for 20

1051
00:42:07,870 --> 00:42:06,440
30 years and it seems all the reports

1052
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:07,880
would have us believe that he's been

1053
00:42:12,450 --> 00:42:09,890
quite conscious throughout that whole

1054
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:12,460
period and just sort of trapped in this

1055
00:42:17,830 --> 00:42:16,100
terrible situation that's what I thought

1056
00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:17,840
when I originally heard the story I

1057
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:19,790
thought that was that's what they were

1058
00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:21,770
reporting somehow this guy it didn't

1059
00:42:28,450 --> 00:42:25,310
cross my mind until I read James Randy's

1060
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:28,460
comments on this issue and then I saw

1061
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:30,290
the video and it was quite clear that

1062
00:42:36,310 --> 00:42:32,720
well to my eyes at least into Randy's

1063
00:42:38,170 --> 00:42:36,320
eyes I guess that the helper was

1064
00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:38,180
actually directing this poor fellow's

1065
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:41,600
hand two words out on the on the

1066
00:42:46,990 --> 00:42:43,850
keyboard on the computer system they're

1067
00:42:49,450 --> 00:42:47,000
using let me direct listeners straight

1068
00:42:51,340 --> 00:42:49,460
away to an interview that was conducted

1069
00:42:54,130 --> 00:42:51,350
with james randi about this very very

1070
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:54,140
phenomenon called Susilo tenant

1071
00:42:58,720 --> 00:42:56,570
communication thank you facilitated

1072
00:43:00,610 --> 00:42:58,730
communication of pasties with artistic

1073
00:43:02,850 --> 00:43:00,620
and the autistic children that's right

1074
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:02,860
was used with autistic people and

1075
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:10,310
listeners can go to ww ABC net a you /

1076
00:43:23,410 --> 00:43:17,650
science / co RR e ex corrects / archives

1077
00:43:25,090 --> 00:43:23,420
/ f a CC 0 m dot HTM I'll put that on

1078
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,100
the show Jim think that any more

1079
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:26,880
difficult I did

1080
00:43:32,029 --> 00:43:29,099
that was the link that was go to Google

1081
00:43:37,999 --> 00:43:32,039
search for the correct files and type in

1082
00:43:40,549 --> 00:43:38,009
Randy and facilitate things right now

1083
00:43:45,759 --> 00:43:40,559
and get the typing target the coma guy

1084
00:43:50,299 --> 00:43:45,769
is going like this I didn't say that fun

1085
00:43:57,769 --> 00:43:50,309
and i forgot to welcome ever tactful dr.

1086
00:44:00,589 --> 00:43:57,779
Reiter welcome dr. H E yes my fishy to

1087
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:00,599
me to sleep not at the moment and

1088
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:04,319
welcome Joe Benna mu who actually flew

1089
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:07,410
back to Australia yes I did Richard it

1090
00:44:11,599 --> 00:44:09,930
lovings at alarming speed now you were

1091
00:44:12,799 --> 00:44:11,609
supposed to be overseas right now I was

1092
00:44:15,529 --> 00:44:12,809
supposed to be in London right now

1093
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:15,539
unfortunately that part of Maya Oh tease

1094
00:44:20,299 --> 00:44:18,210
taunt fell through but I'm still going

1095
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:20,309
to be going to New York so I am very

1096
00:44:22,609 --> 00:44:21,119
much looking forward to hopefully

1097
00:44:24,980 --> 00:44:22,619
meeting up with some of the New York

1098
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:24,990
skeptics I know Mario's looking bored

1099
00:44:30,620 --> 00:44:26,970
yes obviously mari el and hopefully

1100
00:44:33,140 --> 00:44:30,630
George crab as well and yeah that should

1101
00:44:35,299 --> 00:44:33,150
be excellent but I'm here now so and

1102
00:44:37,099 --> 00:44:35,309
welcome to Iran's again thank you

1103
00:44:38,980 --> 00:44:37,109
Richard and thank you for the grain of

1104
00:44:43,069 --> 00:44:38,990
salt last week with that interesting

1105
00:44:44,779 --> 00:44:43,079
adventure through Noah's Ark Wow for

1106
00:44:46,549 --> 00:44:44,789
giraffes were there in there right well

1107
00:44:49,819 --> 00:44:46,559
actually later noticed that there were

1108
00:44:52,009 --> 00:44:49,829
actually four of most of the larger

1109
00:44:54,980 --> 00:44:52,019
animals so they were actually also for

1110
00:44:57,859 --> 00:44:54,990
elephants and for rhinos they were thing

1111
00:45:00,140 --> 00:44:57,869
is that there were two on the platform

1112
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:00,150
leading out of the ark they were

1113
00:45:05,269 --> 00:45:02,490
actually coming out of the ark and in

1114
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:05,279
two more so to two of each there and two

1115
00:45:08,990 --> 00:45:06,690
more in another area of the god in the

1116
00:45:11,390 --> 00:45:09,000
giraffes stood out because they are

1117
00:45:14,180 --> 00:45:11,400
you've seen the book because it because

1118
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:14,190
they're evil but also because they could

1119
00:45:17,809 --> 00:45:15,839
be seen did you know they were able

1120
00:45:21,499 --> 00:45:17,819
because of big otays no because there

1121
00:45:23,539 --> 00:45:21,509
were four so I had to be good anyway

1122
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:23,549
does anybody else have a comment about

1123
00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:26,609
this situation yes um I have a comment

1124
00:45:31,759 --> 00:45:28,529
and Joe and I were discussing this just

1125
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:31,769
earlier and you mentioned that on the

1126
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:33,480
news reports that we saw in Australia

1127
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:36,210
they showed his carer actually taking

1128
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:38,430
his hand and typing keys on a computer

1129
00:45:41,890 --> 00:45:40,250
yeah but

1130
00:45:43,780 --> 00:45:41,900
the report that I saw recently and Joe

1131
00:45:47,770 --> 00:45:43,790
saw this as well was that apparently a

1132
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:47,780
doctor had given him a PET scan PT and

1133
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:50,480
near T skin and had noticed that he had

1134
00:45:55,140 --> 00:45:52,550
more activity in his brain than was

1135
00:45:58,300 --> 00:45:55,150
previously thought and for that reason

1136
00:46:01,570 --> 00:45:58,310
they thought that he was conscious so

1137
00:46:03,340 --> 00:46:01,580
I'm not sure if they're typing was

1138
00:46:05,890 --> 00:46:03,350
actually the only way they diagnosed it

1139
00:46:08,050 --> 00:46:05,900
but I have to say it looked preposterous

1140
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:08,060
it'll completely would look los tres and

1141
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:10,910
I have to say you know I am I was quite

1142
00:46:15,550 --> 00:46:12,890
surprised I had not actually heard yet

1143
00:46:17,230 --> 00:46:15,560
that that James Randi had commented on

1144
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:17,240
this and so on I've had my head in a

1145
00:46:21,970 --> 00:46:19,760
ditch for the last 24 hours but when I

1146
00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:21,980
spoke to everyone else and so this had

1147
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:24,470
come up when I first read the article i

1148
00:46:29,590 --> 00:46:27,790
also thought like Richard gosh how

1149
00:46:31,390 --> 00:46:29,600
fascinating I've heard of locked-in

1150
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:31,400
syndrome and you know I thought well

1151
00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:33,830
this must be something like this the

1152
00:46:38,220 --> 00:46:35,840
minute I saw the video I immediately

1153
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:38,230
thought on my goodness this is

1154
00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:41,210
facilitated communication what what was

1155
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:42,800
particularly preposterous is that this

1156
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:44,210
actually points where this woman is

1157
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:46,160
holding his hand where his eyes are

1158
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:48,530
closed yes yes Randy makes that point

1159
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:51,440
it's quite it's quite horrifying it's

1160
00:46:55,780 --> 00:46:53,690
really awful to see really really ah but

1161
00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:55,790
if there's voluntary control of the eyes

1162
00:46:59,830 --> 00:46:57,950
then there's there's ways of finding out

1163
00:47:02,470 --> 00:46:59,840
you can ask us questions and say blink

1164
00:47:05,350 --> 00:47:02,480
once why some years that's how

1165
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:05,360
communication with patients with the

1166
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:08,090
locked-in syndrome is usually conducted

1167
00:47:11,980 --> 00:47:10,250
yeah I think some of the tips that it

1168
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:11,990
might be facilitated communication are

1169
00:47:17,470 --> 00:47:14,930
also that now he's saying that he used

1170
00:47:19,330 --> 00:47:17,480
to speak four languages and he can he

1171
00:47:20,860 --> 00:47:19,340
can do it again now that he's woken up

1172
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:20,870
before he had the car accident that's

1173
00:47:23,890 --> 00:47:22,730
how he got into the vegetative state he

1174
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:23,900
could speak four languages he's now

1175
00:47:26,890 --> 00:47:25,760
saying he can do that again he's saying

1176
00:47:29,620 --> 00:47:26,900
that he's going to write a book about

1177
00:47:31,650 --> 00:47:29,630
his experiences that he's going to go

1178
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:31,660
back to university all this stuff that

1179
00:47:36,370 --> 00:47:33,710
really doesn't sound like it's coming

1180
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:36,380
from him you know it sounds like it's

1181
00:47:42,370 --> 00:47:39,610
the the ideas of the help of the carer

1182
00:47:45,220 --> 00:47:42,380
it's actually that would be particularly

1183
00:47:46,780 --> 00:47:45,230
easy to test because sport are the four

1184
00:47:47,849 --> 00:47:46,790
languages and they say what the four

1185
00:47:50,279 --> 00:47:47,859
languages is

1186
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:50,289
then there's the care then you say just

1187
00:47:55,170 --> 00:47:53,170
pick a random word in you know common

1188
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:55,180
random word from these four languages so

1189
00:47:58,950 --> 00:47:56,890
how do you say this in French German

1190
00:48:01,380 --> 00:47:58,960
Spanish in English Yeah Yeah right are

1191
00:48:03,529 --> 00:48:01,390
there any sick days like this tests you

1192
00:48:05,549 --> 00:48:03,539
know in the care of obviously you know

1193
00:48:06,989 --> 00:48:05,559
she wouldn't be a kid she gonna be

1194
00:48:09,989 --> 00:48:06,999
working as a carriage and you fall in

1195
00:48:17,819 --> 00:48:09,999
languages i suppose but uh huh ah no

1196
00:48:19,410 --> 00:48:17,829
points game so it is i think it's ii

1197
00:48:21,089 --> 00:48:19,420
would be quite a simple test to conduct

1198
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:21,099
and i think i know what the results map

1199
00:48:24,870 --> 00:48:23,049
I mean once again this is an example of

1200
00:48:27,029 --> 00:48:24,880
credulous news reporting isn't it it's a

1201
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:27,039
little bit like what we saw last week

1202
00:48:32,220 --> 00:48:29,410
with the Desiree Jenny Jennings story

1203
00:48:37,620 --> 00:48:32,230
the fox news story my head exploded Joe

1204
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:37,630
oh yeah mine stolen pieces on actually

1205
00:48:41,809 --> 00:48:39,130
I'm glad you raised that is reg ending

1206
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:41,819
story because I I had an interesting

1207
00:48:47,130 --> 00:48:44,049
discussion with the colleague of mine

1208
00:48:50,839 --> 00:48:47,140
who gave me permission to tell you all

1209
00:48:54,269 --> 00:48:50,849
about this we were talking about the

1210
00:48:57,150 --> 00:48:54,279
swine flu vaccine h1n one vaccine and

1211
00:48:58,739 --> 00:48:57,160
she was saying that her her boyfriend

1212
00:49:01,170 --> 00:48:58,749
had said that he didn't want her to get

1213
00:49:03,559 --> 00:49:01,180
it because he was a bit worried about

1214
00:49:07,229 --> 00:49:03,569
this girl that they'd seen who had

1215
00:49:08,579 --> 00:49:07,239
become paralyzed from the vaccine and it

1216
00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:08,589
was just a whole it was a bit of a

1217
00:49:14,190 --> 00:49:10,900
mishmash of of what we had already bout

1218
00:49:16,620 --> 00:49:14,200
Desiree Jennings and you know these

1219
00:49:19,950 --> 00:49:16,630
sheets she's a nurse and her boyfriend

1220
00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:19,960
and were both actually very very sort of

1221
00:49:27,420 --> 00:49:22,980
willing to the scientific evidence and

1222
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:27,430
and very actually probe vaccination but

1223
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:31,210
it was simply a result of the scare as a

1224
00:49:34,589 --> 00:49:32,710
result of the Desiree Jennings story

1225
00:49:36,359 --> 00:49:34,599
then they both felt that there was

1226
00:49:38,819 --> 00:49:36,369
something to be worried about and and

1227
00:49:40,349 --> 00:49:38,829
and it had made them alarmed at the

1228
00:49:42,479 --> 00:49:40,359
thought of getting the vaccine I must

1229
00:49:45,029 --> 00:49:42,489
say that this is actually chose that the

1230
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:45,039
condition actually that it actually does

1231
00:49:48,660 --> 00:49:46,930
happen because Desiree's Jennings

1232
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:48,670
condition is a psychological one and

1233
00:49:57,779 --> 00:49:53,920
here's another psychologically the Fox

1234
00:49:59,549 --> 00:49:57,789
story Iran on the on her recovery on no

1235
00:50:01,739 --> 00:49:59,559
oh

1236
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:01,749
if listeners haven't seen that sorry I

1237
00:50:07,439 --> 00:50:04,390
just want to say something I do not wach

1238
00:50:09,179 --> 00:50:07,449
Fox choice this is the research you

1239
00:50:13,469 --> 00:50:09,189
really know you really should see it

1240
00:50:14,969 --> 00:50:13,479
because I watch a lot of weight all

1241
00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:14,979
right you can have the week off thank

1242
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:16,569
you but if listeners haven't seen it

1243
00:50:21,959 --> 00:50:18,910
please just do a search for Fox News and

1244
00:50:23,370 --> 00:50:21,969
Desiree Jennings and you will you won't

1245
00:50:26,370 --> 00:50:23,380
believe what you see you won't believe

1246
00:50:27,870 --> 00:50:26,380
the credulity of the report it's all the

1247
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:27,880
nonsense that you could possibly ever

1248
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:30,249
hear they throw in Jenny McCarthy

1249
00:50:35,029 --> 00:50:31,839
they're throwing Jim Carrey they throw

1250
00:50:38,339 --> 00:50:35,039
in Generation Rescue they throw in

1251
00:50:40,079 --> 00:50:38,349
collation they throw in alternative

1252
00:50:42,749 --> 00:50:40,089
medicine is curing it what is me as a

1253
00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:42,759
doctor butter yeah yeah that's his name

1254
00:50:49,439 --> 00:50:46,660
who is being investigated treating her

1255
00:50:52,699 --> 00:50:49,449
yeah he's being investigated for serious

1256
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:52,709
breaches of clinical practices etc and

1257
00:50:59,219 --> 00:50:56,130
they say that it's evidence that

1258
00:51:01,140 --> 00:50:59,229
alternative medicine works it's it's so

1259
00:51:03,660 --> 00:51:01,150
bad that I used to swear word on Twitter

1260
00:51:05,459 --> 00:51:03,670
and I never uses on Twitter and my

1261
00:51:08,099 --> 00:51:05,469
followers would know it was a bad four

1262
00:51:12,509 --> 00:51:08,109
letter word so have a little swimming on

1263
00:51:15,539 --> 00:51:12,519
Twitter this week and I never crash okay

1264
00:51:18,499 --> 00:51:15,549
why did you say ready to ship nothing

1265
00:51:22,319 --> 00:51:18,509
surprises me the word or worse like what

1266
00:51:24,689 --> 00:51:22,329
poop poop yes I've been actually just on

1267
00:51:27,870 --> 00:51:24,699
on that note the UM the very special

1268
00:51:31,169 --> 00:51:27,880
episode of SGU that just came out on the

1269
00:51:36,259 --> 00:51:31,179
h1n1 vaccine a very very good um

1270
00:51:40,609 --> 00:51:36,269
discussion between Steve novella and num

1271
00:51:42,779 --> 00:51:40,619
job each other beats and my chrysalis oh

1272
00:51:46,109 --> 00:51:42,789
yeah that was a good episode I enjoyed

1273
00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:46,119
that I using joyous to you mmm I'm

1274
00:51:50,459 --> 00:51:48,640
wearing this shirt in fact you can't see

1275
00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:50,469
wearing a big skeptics guide to the

1276
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,569
universe it's a very 70s looking yes to

1277
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:54,640
you TJ you should have ammo for Movember

1278
00:52:00,179 --> 00:51:56,890
to go this is the shirt designed by

1279
00:52:02,759 --> 00:52:00,189
Ricky cabana boys universe in Australia

1280
00:52:05,429 --> 00:52:02,769
oh yeah yeah okay now pretty cool now

1281
00:52:07,019 --> 00:52:05,439
can we talk about the opposite of what

1282
00:52:09,710 --> 00:52:07,029
we just talked about and that is good

1283
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:09,720
news reporting in the mainstream media

1284
00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:12,730
there's a journalist who writes for the

1285
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:14,560
Fairfax press here in Australia his

1286
00:52:20,130 --> 00:52:17,710
name's Nick Miller and if you wanna he's

1287
00:52:23,010 --> 00:52:20,140
actually on Twitter his a twitter name

1288
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:23,020
is nick d miller and he wrote a story

1289
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:25,480
this week about the risks of getting

1290
00:52:32,670 --> 00:52:30,130
quack stem cell therapy for very huge

1291
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:32,680
for huge amounts of money in foreign

1292
00:52:35,609 --> 00:52:34,090
countries and Joey's got it in front of

1293
00:52:38,970 --> 00:52:35,619
her Joe can you tell us a little bit

1294
00:52:41,970 --> 00:52:38,980
about what's in the story hmm so this is

1295
00:52:44,220 --> 00:52:41,980
something that I've heard discussed in a

1296
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:44,230
number of science-based podcasts over

1297
00:52:51,780 --> 00:52:47,650
the last year or so you know with with

1298
00:52:53,940 --> 00:52:51,790
the popularity of stem cell research and

1299
00:52:57,540 --> 00:52:53,950
all the possibilities that we see with

1300
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:57,550
stem cells of course there have been a

1301
00:53:02,580 --> 00:52:59,440
lot of crack therapies that have come

1302
00:53:04,410 --> 00:53:02,590
out a lot of private clinics who are

1303
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:04,420
claiming to be able to treat everything

1304
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:08,050
from Alzheimer's to cancer in all sorts

1305
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:11,530
of conditions and so this report from

1306
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:15,010
Nick Miller is raising a couple of cases

1307
00:53:22,380 --> 00:53:19,810
where they've been suspected cancers

1308
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:22,390
that have developed as a result of these

1309
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:25,210
stem cell treatments now there are a

1310
00:53:32,370 --> 00:53:27,010
couple of very very interesting comments

1311
00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:32,380
in the article 11 of the things that he

1312
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:34,750
he writes about is the fact that many

1313
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:37,570
most of these clinics have virtually no

1314
00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:40,210
published clinical proof of their

1315
00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:43,300
efficacy and they promote themselves

1316
00:53:49,020 --> 00:53:46,420
through the usual testimonials and you

1317
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:49,030
know glossy web sites and so on and

1318
00:53:56,070 --> 00:53:50,710
something that I just thought was very

1319
00:53:59,970 --> 00:53:56,080
pertinent was a hematologist from one of

1320
00:54:04,079 --> 00:53:59,980
the reputable research centers was

1321
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:04,089
quoted as saying that a gentleman who

1322
00:54:08,310 --> 00:54:06,910
had a Queensland man had paid forty

1323
00:54:12,329 --> 00:54:08,320
thousand dollars for a treatment at a

1324
00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:12,339
private German clinic and that she said

1325
00:54:15,780 --> 00:54:13,660
that this was a treatment that was the

1326
00:54:16,890 --> 00:54:15,790
most open mind you not think that this

1327
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:16,900
treatment would help him in any way

1328
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:19,210
whatsoever but she specifically said

1329
00:54:22,350 --> 00:54:20,770
that they'll take his money and not do

1330
00:54:24,690 --> 00:54:22,360
anything to look after him when he lay

1331
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:24,700
use that if we practice a treatment like

1332
00:54:28,860 --> 00:54:27,490
that we would be disbarred and you know

1333
00:54:30,210 --> 00:54:28,870
this again raises all these issues of

1334
00:54:32,340 --> 00:54:30,220
how these people are able to carry out

1335
00:54:35,820 --> 00:54:32,350
these treatments with no consequences

1336
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:35,830
and and you know at no standards of

1337
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:38,290
evidence and they will and no follow-up

1338
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:41,950
so it's a very good article and um

1339
00:54:47,310 --> 00:54:44,910
doctors in these clinics that the

1340
00:54:49,370 --> 00:54:47,320
supposedly professionals I think that

1341
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:49,380
was one of them just falling over out

1342
00:54:55,110 --> 00:54:51,910
what's going on about the quarter um

1343
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:55,120
they don't they don't just diskant

1344
00:54:58,740 --> 00:54:56,770
discuss that specifically of what the

1345
00:55:00,840 --> 00:54:58,750
qualifications are people offering the

1346
00:55:02,910 --> 00:55:00,850
treatments he doesn't really go into

1347
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:02,920
that he just really talks about what

1348
00:55:07,860 --> 00:55:06,010
they offer and you know you know the

1349
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:07,870
lack of follow-up and so on one of the

1350
00:55:12,660 --> 00:55:11,440
cases they highlight is the specific

1351
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:12,670
case that they were talking about was a

1352
00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:14,350
man who developed leukemia following

1353
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:15,910
this therapy and they said that it was

1354
00:55:20,780 --> 00:55:17,910
very difficult to prove a definite

1355
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:20,790
causative link between them but

1356
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:24,250
apparently there is reported a case

1357
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:27,970
report of an Israeli teenager who

1358
00:55:32,580 --> 00:55:29,890
developed brain tumors from experimental

1359
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:32,590
stem cell injections at a Russian clinic

1360
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:35,050
grand this has been you know very well

1361
00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:39,610
documented so you know as I said that he

1362
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:40,720
doesn't discuss specifically the

1363
00:55:44,070 --> 00:55:41,890
qualifications but there's definitely

1364
00:55:46,650 --> 00:55:44,080
documented evidence I think there's well

1365
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:46,660
do we have to be very cautious that

1366
00:55:54,180 --> 00:55:49,570
thing to not take these cases even the

1367
00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:54,190
case of that brain tumors as evidence

1368
00:55:59,730 --> 00:55:56,460
that it causes any harm the thing is

1369
00:56:02,760 --> 00:55:59,740
treatment should not be provided without

1370
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:02,770
evidence of efficacy and safety and here

1371
00:56:07,470 --> 00:56:05,010
these are treatments there haven't been

1372
00:56:09,150 --> 00:56:07,480
proven to be either education so safe

1373
00:56:11,130 --> 00:56:09,160
and here they are just being bandied

1374
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:11,140
about I think that's that's the most I

1375
00:56:14,550 --> 00:56:12,910
think this is really interesting to Iran

1376
00:56:16,890 --> 00:56:14,560
because only a week prior to this

1377
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:16,900
article coming out there was a story on

1378
00:56:21,330 --> 00:56:19,420
channel seven on the show sunday night

1379
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:21,340
which sometimes does good things they

1380
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:23,850
actually expose some of the anti-vaxxers

1381
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:27,760
back in the early in the year but they

1382
00:56:32,370 --> 00:56:30,490
did a story on autism and they covered

1383
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:32,380
three families there were seeking three

1384
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:34,450
different forms of treatment one of

1385
00:56:37,610 --> 00:56:35,760
which was this

1386
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:37,620
he was so desperate she took her 12 year

1387
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:39,450
old son to China to get stem cell

1388
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:42,330
therapy and they covered their sinan was

1389
00:56:47,930 --> 00:56:45,510
the condition autism autism yes for

1390
00:56:50,870 --> 00:56:47,940
autism yeah of course there's no

1391
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:50,880
evidence it once again but they kind of

1392
00:56:55,490 --> 00:56:52,770
I'm not a scientist so that there's

1393
00:56:58,310 --> 00:56:55,500
things i can say that scientists can to

1394
00:57:02,630 --> 00:56:58,320
have a very strong feeling that he can't

1395
00:57:06,140 --> 00:57:02,640
work yes you yet use stem cells to

1396
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:06,150
replace Charles brain know that the

1397
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:08,370
basis for the for the quackery is that

1398
00:57:12,140 --> 00:57:10,290
the stem cells will seek out the area

1399
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:12,150
that needs repair and then go there

1400
00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:14,570
basic structural form it's not damaged

1401
00:57:18,260 --> 00:57:16,830
that's irrelevant in this case its

1402
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:18,270
twenty thousand dollars just don't ask

1403
00:57:21,890 --> 00:57:19,890
you know yeah but the way that this

1404
00:57:25,070 --> 00:57:21,900
story was covered by channel 7 and shame

1405
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:25,080
on them was there was a couple of things

1406
00:57:30,860 --> 00:57:28,290
that really got my goat and one of them

1407
00:57:32,930 --> 00:57:30,870
was the reporter said that they would

1408
00:57:35,090 --> 00:57:32,940
remove stem cells from the boys own body

1409
00:57:37,070 --> 00:57:35,100
and then re-inject them and then they

1410
00:57:39,380 --> 00:57:37,080
would inject stem cells from Chinese

1411
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:39,390
babies and then they went to the next

1412
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:42,510
part of the story and so I was sitting

1413
00:57:47,090 --> 00:57:44,490
in front of my television going excuse

1414
00:57:50,060 --> 00:57:47,100
me jaw hitting the floor stem cells from

1415
00:57:52,070 --> 00:57:50,070
Chinese babies of what I mean where do

1416
00:57:53,660 --> 00:57:52,080
these come from do you just go and

1417
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:53,670
harvest some babies off the street I

1418
00:57:57,890 --> 00:57:55,290
mean there are too many people inside it

1419
00:57:59,780 --> 00:57:57,900
anyway right so this was not even

1420
00:58:01,370 --> 00:57:59,790
mentioned he didn't say anything it was

1421
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:01,380
that was the that was it cuz they're

1422
00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:03,690
Chinese babies well maybe that's the

1423
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,510
case well you mean the researcher or the

1424
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:08,400
writers just written this not girls at

1425
00:58:14,330 --> 00:58:11,310
the thought that was it and there was

1426
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,340
another faily faily part two years there

1427
00:58:21,230 --> 00:58:17,280
was another one of the families their

1428
00:58:24,290 --> 00:58:21,240
son is undergoing a clinical trial for a

1429
00:58:27,820 --> 00:58:24,300
hormone called oxytocin which the the

1430
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:27,830
child is actually getting nasally and

1431
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:30,480
this is a double-blind crossover trial

1432
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:33,690
currently happening in Sydney and later

1433
00:58:37,370 --> 00:58:35,970
on when they'd filmed the boy undergoing

1434
00:58:38,570 --> 00:58:37,380
the treatment they went back to his

1435
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:38,580
house with him and then they said to him

1436
00:58:45,500 --> 00:58:40,530
also how do you feel now that you're

1437
00:58:48,740 --> 00:58:45,510
taking the oxytocin and I won't fail the

1438
00:58:49,490 --> 00:58:48,750
boys in a random blind crossover trial

1439
00:58:54,170 --> 00:58:49,500
he's

1440
00:58:56,990 --> 00:58:54,180
and so they kind of unblinded the trial

1441
00:58:59,930 --> 00:58:57,000
wellness unless I mean how would they

1442
00:59:01,220 --> 00:58:59,940
know though if you paid online hey nice

1443
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:01,230
maybe they don't know they probably

1444
00:59:05,090 --> 00:59:03,450
don't know and it may be a maybe it

1445
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:05,100
maybe he could he could be on either

1446
00:59:10,310 --> 00:59:08,130
group yeah no they're not even right no

1447
00:59:12,530 --> 00:59:10,320
we don't that the point is they failed

1448
00:59:14,060 --> 00:59:12,540
you know I mean obviously have no

1449
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:14,070
understanding of how science waste all

1450
00:59:18,590 --> 00:59:16,770
so I was very pleased when Nick Miller

1451
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:18,600
wrote this article a week later and

1452
00:59:22,340 --> 00:59:20,970
actually got it right because I was

1453
00:59:24,790 --> 00:59:22,350
hitting my head against the wall at

1454
00:59:26,530 --> 00:59:24,800
mines going what are you people doing

1455
00:59:28,820 --> 00:59:26,540
remember you said earlier about

1456
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:28,830
credulous reporting by the person I was

1457
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:31,050
thinking really kick craziness report I

1458
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,690
never just about to ask you why you've

1459
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:35,280
got that bandage on your head but now I

1460
00:59:39,170 --> 00:59:37,530
know it's been a bad week started with

1461
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:39,180
pops on Saturday morning and then just

1462
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:41,370
went down hill so thank you Nick Miller

1463
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:44,250
Adobe let me just mention and I won't

1464
00:59:50,930 --> 00:59:47,450
dwell on this because our good friend

1465
00:59:53,830 --> 00:59:50,940
Jason over at the nonsense podcast will

1466
00:59:57,860 --> 00:59:53,840
be covering this for each year and I

1467
01:00:00,980 --> 00:59:57,870
went to see the performance or the

1468
01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:00,990
speech the talk I mean of a animal

1469
01:00:09,860 --> 01:00:07,740
telepath hmm do you want me to comment

1470
01:00:13,850 --> 01:00:09,870
on that in case you need to let me hear

1471
01:00:16,030 --> 01:00:13,860
that I just did yeah right you like

1472
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:16,040
thats where where I used on Twitter yeah

1473
01:00:22,270 --> 01:00:19,890
yeah please go and subscribe to the

1474
01:00:25,220 --> 01:00:22,280
nonsense podcast look for it on itunes

1475
01:00:27,620 --> 01:00:25,230
we run ads for it but what Rachel I

1476
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:27,630
comment on that podcast cuz we were

1477
01:00:35,630 --> 01:00:32,370
there and they request oh boy imagine

1478
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:35,640
listeners imagine the looniest people

1479
01:00:40,190 --> 01:00:37,650
you can find and put them all in one

1480
01:00:42,620 --> 01:00:40,200
room and shut the door and sit there for

1481
01:00:44,660 --> 01:00:42,630
90 minutes and see how you can when when

1482
01:00:49,730 --> 01:00:44,670
when you told me that it was worse than

1483
01:00:52,580 --> 01:00:49,740
the bogan psychic it was it was the

1484
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:52,590
bogus psychic iCarly said put them all

1485
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:54,240
in the room a lot i just broke thinking

1486
01:00:58,960 --> 01:00:55,040
of

1487
01:01:00,460 --> 01:00:58,970
and saying getting the sack it was

1488
01:01:03,100 --> 01:01:00,470
something else believing it was

1489
01:01:05,140 --> 01:01:03,110
something um now I've noticed lately

1490
01:01:07,150 --> 01:01:05,150
that there's an interesting sites been

1491
01:01:08,890 --> 01:01:07,160
reviewing our podcast and lots of other

1492
01:01:11,530 --> 01:01:08,900
skeptical podcasts that sites called

1493
01:01:14,260 --> 01:01:11,540
Rachel it's called The Skeptical review

1494
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:14,270
yeah and it's dub dub dub skip review

1495
01:01:20,380 --> 01:01:18,110
com and I really enjoy reading what what

1496
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:20,390
other people think about our podcast I

1497
01:01:23,350 --> 01:01:21,920
mean we get a lot of letters from our

1498
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:23,360
listeners which is really great and

1499
01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:26,000
they're full of very kind things but to

1500
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:27,560
see something published on the internet

1501
01:01:31,390 --> 01:01:29,330
about our podcast another podcast earth

1502
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:31,400
I find it is quite invaluable it's about

1503
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:32,930
it on the internet so it must be true it

1504
01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:34,670
must be true it's a very nice site he

1505
01:01:38,650 --> 01:01:36,620
does a great job with it it's Nigel that

1506
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:38,660
runs the Sun isn't it yeah Nigel sent

1507
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:42,410
Whitehall hmm well cheers and thank you

1508
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:44,480
very much we're not buttering up to you

1509
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:48,530
or anything but keep you just gave the

1510
01:01:57,340 --> 01:01:53,210
game away now be honest be honest all

1511
01:01:59,100 --> 01:01:57,350
right oh now this is interesting now

1512
01:02:02,590 --> 01:01:59,110
what you're holding up there Joe is us

1513
01:02:04,090 --> 01:02:02,600
is a scan of a pamphlet that somebody

1514
01:02:06,220 --> 01:02:04,100
actually ripped up and threw in the bin

1515
01:02:09,550 --> 01:02:06,230
yes what about one of our listeners Ryan

1516
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:09,560
sent this in to me and in fact it's

1517
01:02:12,910 --> 01:02:10,610
quite funny because you can actually see

1518
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:12,920
the chair Markstrom I ripped it up in a

1519
01:02:17,980 --> 01:02:14,690
rage and smell all back together before

1520
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:17,990
sending it to me okay so he was really

1521
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:19,520
concerned about this because you know

1522
01:02:26,590 --> 01:02:21,710
we've spoken a lot about homeopathic pro

1523
01:02:29,830 --> 01:02:26,600
homeo prophylaxis or the belief that you

1524
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:29,840
can vaccinate with water and sugar pills

1525
01:02:36,370 --> 01:02:32,690
yeah so what r I was very concerned

1526
01:02:39,790 --> 01:02:36,380
about is this this company that is

1527
01:02:43,780 --> 01:02:39,800
promoting a homeopathic vaccination for

1528
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:43,790
pets yeah and they say that it's a

1529
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:45,650
natural alternative to vaccinations

1530
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:48,290
heartworm tick bite and prevention tick

1531
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:50,090
paralysis snakebite multi wormer

1532
01:02:57,820 --> 01:02:52,730
allergen immune for all types of insect

1533
01:03:00,490 --> 01:02:57,830
bites and reactions and the cacica the

1534
01:03:03,790 --> 01:03:00,500
company name yeah so the company is

1535
01:03:06,910 --> 01:03:03,800
called natural pet Ock's got a second

1536
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:06,920
rachel what you know how we work this

1537
01:03:11,380 --> 01:03:08,930
pet psychic we went to San all psychic

1538
01:03:13,180 --> 01:03:11,390
was that animal limb yes right and i'ma

1539
01:03:15,579 --> 01:03:13,190
liberation and all liberation in cydia

1540
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:15,589
oh oh they would think about offering

1541
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:18,170
water to animals and said well worming

1542
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,910
tablets remember when we got in there

1543
01:03:23,349 --> 01:03:21,200
and the doors were closed and the

1544
01:03:26,079 --> 01:03:23,359
outlets were sealed and we were stuck

1545
01:03:28,180 --> 01:03:26,089
there I turned around and I yelped

1546
01:03:31,420 --> 01:03:28,190
almost because there was a video

1547
01:03:35,500 --> 01:03:31,430
cassette on the shelf called vaccination

1548
01:03:38,109 --> 01:03:35,510
the whole truth and at the end I got up

1549
01:03:42,579 --> 01:03:38,119
and I looked at it and it was Isaac

1550
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:42,589
golden oh no and varus right now amongst

1551
01:03:47,740 --> 01:03:45,049
others so well yeah and this is an

1552
01:03:50,410 --> 01:03:47,750
animal liberation yeah so they would

1553
01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:50,420
probably condone this well um possibly

1554
01:03:56,140 --> 01:03:52,880
well I wonder what Alice think I would

1555
01:03:59,740 --> 01:03:56,150
think of you know people like that using

1556
01:04:01,809 --> 01:03:59,750
the mommy's book in there as the name of

1557
01:04:04,180 --> 01:04:01,819
their organization well these people

1558
01:04:06,190 --> 01:04:04,190
were really extreme actually and the

1559
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:06,200
thing sorry to interrupt I just just add

1560
01:04:11,049 --> 01:04:08,260
that the thing that concerned me

1561
01:04:13,089 --> 01:04:11,059
particularly about them is that these

1562
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:13,099
people really do care about animals and

1563
01:04:19,569 --> 01:04:15,890
I'm an animal lover myself but they're

1564
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:19,579
wasting all their time your attention

1565
01:04:22,750 --> 01:04:21,290
please runs and gets the curses busted

1566
01:04:26,020 --> 01:04:22,760
apart department is going to ask free

1567
01:04:31,569 --> 01:04:26,030
HBO quarter part kmc ash free ash gourd

1568
01:04:33,849 --> 01:04:31,579
Omaha can see if I'm you thank you so

1569
01:04:35,500 --> 01:04:33,859
you're saying no you were making a face

1570
01:04:37,990 --> 01:04:35,510
as if I love animals because I can eat

1571
01:04:39,940 --> 01:04:38,000
them and that's not what I meant however

1572
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:39,950
I won't deny that no but they are tasty

1573
01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:41,930
and delicious but I can't eat a whole

1574
01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:44,000
one but the thing is these people are

1575
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:45,470
obviously very dedicated and passionate

1576
01:04:49,809 --> 01:04:47,839
about animals but why the hell are they

1577
01:04:52,359 --> 01:04:49,819
wasting their time and the resources of

1578
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:52,369
people that give the money on having

1579
01:04:56,170 --> 01:04:54,559
seminars about explaining how their dog

1580
01:04:59,440 --> 01:04:56,180
can tell them that they want to curry

1581
01:05:01,299 --> 01:04:59,450
for dinner tonight the curry she did she

1582
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:01,309
said and she also said she talks to dead

1583
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:05,510
cows yeah but my sister talk to those

1584
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:13,810
Oh too well done my sisters heavily

1585
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:15,530
involved in the greyhound rescue program

1586
01:05:20,110 --> 01:05:17,570
in Australia and I was telling her about

1587
01:05:22,150 --> 01:05:20,120
it and and she had the same opinion was

1588
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:22,160
why do these people not direct the

1589
01:05:26,500 --> 01:05:23,690
energies into something useful instead

1590
01:05:29,140 --> 01:05:26,510
of sitting around and saying yes a cow

1591
01:05:31,060 --> 01:05:29,150
in France told me it was in distress so

1592
01:05:33,370 --> 01:05:31,070
I got on a plane that went there that's

1593
01:05:35,590 --> 01:05:33,380
true amazing it's the same reason that

1594
01:05:37,810 --> 01:05:35,600
people who have some serious illnesses

1595
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:37,820
waste their time going to quacks instead

1596
01:05:42,370 --> 01:05:39,770
of going to doctors same reason these

1597
01:05:43,780 --> 01:05:42,380
people are do not have effects and

1598
01:05:48,010 --> 01:05:43,790
they're loaded maybe so to believe

1599
01:05:50,260 --> 01:05:48,020
comforting yeah anyway just to wrap up

1600
01:05:52,060 --> 01:05:50,270
on this one so the Alister was

1601
01:05:54,070 --> 01:05:52,070
particularly concerned because with

1602
01:05:55,690 --> 01:05:54,080
things like tick paralysis is snake bite

1603
01:05:57,880 --> 01:05:55,700
of course these are medical emergencies

1604
01:05:59,290 --> 01:05:57,890
for animals and yeah so you know this is

1605
01:06:01,090 --> 01:05:59,300
very worrying that people would be going

1606
01:06:03,070 --> 01:06:01,100
to these alternatives but what he did

1607
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:03,080
find out and this is quite useful for

1608
01:06:06,250 --> 01:06:04,490
our listeners is if you are concerned

1609
01:06:09,730 --> 01:06:06,260
about something a product like this that

1610
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:09,740
is being promoted for animals you can

1611
01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:11,450
report it to the Australian pesticides

1612
01:06:19,810 --> 01:06:13,750
and veterinary medicines authority at

1613
01:06:21,610 --> 01:06:19,820
www ap VMA ova you are we doing that he

1614
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:21,620
is he is excellent and probably the

1615
01:06:26,950 --> 01:06:25,250
RSPCA to yet actually I should alert dr.

1616
01:06:28,750 --> 01:06:26,960
Alex Lucas who I interviewed a couple of

1617
01:06:31,390 --> 01:06:28,760
weeks ago he's working on designing a

1618
01:06:33,940 --> 01:06:31,400
vaccine for hookworm hmm he might just

1619
01:06:38,260 --> 01:06:33,950
use this is doing yes yes they've all

1620
01:06:41,950 --> 01:06:38,270
said all the work okay I have some good

1621
01:06:43,510 --> 01:06:41,960
news I've hopped on about religious

1622
01:06:46,780 --> 01:06:43,520
education in New South Wales schools in

1623
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:46,790
the past and just to reiterate for those

1624
01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:49,520
who don't know the most public schools

1625
01:06:55,740 --> 01:06:53,420
in in New South Wales and and actually

1626
01:06:58,960 --> 01:06:55,750
across Australia have something called

1627
01:07:00,790 --> 01:06:58,970
religious education classes or sre which

1628
01:07:02,980 --> 01:07:00,800
is special religious education yeah a

1629
01:07:04,330 --> 01:07:02,990
lot of people also mr. all this country

1630
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:04,340
is the common name for them in Scripture

1631
01:07:09,010 --> 01:07:06,890
yeah the official name is s re special

1632
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:09,020
religious education in it's not about

1633
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:11,930
religion these are these are half an

1634
01:07:16,300 --> 01:07:13,610
hour to an hour a week during which the

1635
01:07:19,770 --> 01:07:16,310
school authorities give the kids hand

1636
01:07:21,630 --> 01:07:19,780
the kids over to religious groups

1637
01:07:24,690 --> 01:07:21,640
mandated by the state

1638
01:07:28,170 --> 01:07:24,700
and it's a half an hour to an hour a

1639
01:07:31,500 --> 01:07:28,180
week of indoctrination of the worst kind

1640
01:07:34,730 --> 01:07:31,510
in some cases there were cases that I

1641
01:07:37,380 --> 01:07:34,740
know where say kids in the Catholic

1642
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:37,390
religious education were told by the nun

1643
01:07:42,299 --> 01:07:40,690
who teaches them that anybody who's not

1644
01:07:43,950 --> 01:07:42,309
Catholic is going to hell and the kids

1645
01:07:45,630 --> 01:07:43,960
have to be six-year-old kid who had to

1646
01:07:47,309 --> 01:07:45,640
be withdrawn because he was distressed

1647
01:07:50,579 --> 01:07:47,319
about his father who was not Catholic

1648
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:50,589
did um so there's all kinds of things

1649
01:07:56,910 --> 01:07:53,650
like that the thing is that for a long

1650
01:07:59,099 --> 01:07:56,920
time the law in New South Wales dictated

1651
01:08:01,799 --> 01:07:59,109
that children who whose parents opted

1652
01:08:03,539 --> 01:08:01,809
them out of these classes shall go to

1653
01:08:05,279 --> 01:08:03,549
the library and do nothing at all

1654
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:05,289
they're not even allowed to read school

1655
01:08:07,799 --> 01:08:06,400
books they're allowed to read other

1656
01:08:09,029 --> 01:08:07,809
books but they're not allowed to do any

1657
01:08:10,410 --> 01:08:09,039
work you're not allowed to study

1658
01:08:12,839 --> 01:08:10,420
anything alternative the whole idea is

1659
01:08:14,670 --> 01:08:12,849
of course if you give them the law

1660
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:14,680
basically gives the kids to an hour for

1661
01:08:17,999 --> 01:08:16,480
an hour to religious groups they will

1662
01:08:21,599 --> 01:08:18,009
obviously know what any meaningful

1663
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:21,609
competition so so that was that's been

1664
01:08:26,849 --> 01:08:23,290
the law for a long time and recently

1665
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:26,859
this same forgot the name of the year to

1666
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:28,690
second i will pause this for a second

1667
01:08:36,090 --> 01:08:32,290
this practice so recently this in james

1668
01:08:38,430 --> 01:08:36,100
ethics centre started a campaign to have

1669
01:08:41,370 --> 01:08:38,440
an alternative in the shape of an ethics

1670
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:41,380
class during that time but the idea is

1671
01:08:45,329 --> 01:08:43,440
that there's nothing you know if the

1672
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:45,339
religious groups are saying that they're

1673
01:08:50,729 --> 01:08:48,130
teaching children ethics and morals in

1674
01:08:52,140 --> 01:08:50,739
the in that case why not just teach them

1675
01:08:53,849 --> 01:08:52,150
ethics and morals directly rather than

1676
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:53,859
through the existence or lack of

1677
01:08:59,090 --> 01:08:56,290
existence of a supreme being of some

1678
01:09:04,740 --> 01:08:59,100
sort that that was quite a fight and

1679
01:09:06,749 --> 01:09:04,750
just I think was yesterday the Premier

1680
01:09:07,919 --> 01:09:06,759
of New South Wales Nathan Rees it's

1681
01:09:09,899 --> 01:09:07,929
announced that the government will now

1682
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:09,909
allow a trial of an ethics course in 10

1683
01:09:17,550 --> 01:09:12,810
primary schools over two terms next year

1684
01:09:18,899 --> 01:09:17,560
I'm extremely pleased of course I don't

1685
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:18,909
think it should have been a trial but I

1686
01:09:24,329 --> 01:09:22,000
understand how these things work I'm

1687
01:09:26,939 --> 01:09:24,339
fairly sure that if it's just 10 you

1688
01:09:30,090 --> 01:09:26,949
know the greatest arm conveyors of

1689
01:09:32,519 --> 01:09:30,100
ethics education will be chosen to a

1690
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:32,529
teacher those ten schools and I'm sure

1691
01:09:38,220 --> 01:09:34,239
will be a great success and that will

1692
01:09:40,229 --> 01:09:38,230
to a real good alternative to kids whose

1693
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,239
parents do not want to send them to

1694
01:09:44,759 --> 01:09:41,920
religiously begin classes so that's a

1695
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:44,769
great win for reason and that's

1696
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:47,049
fantastic news yeah great news it was

1697
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:50,289
looking a little bit um I don't know

1698
01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:52,449
grim when it first came up a few weeks

1699
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:54,340
ago there was immediately opposition

1700
01:09:58,620 --> 01:09:56,800
from the young the I think one of the

1701
01:10:01,069 --> 01:09:58,630
Catholic organizations well actually it

1702
01:10:03,330 --> 01:10:01,079
was more than that it turns out that the

1703
01:10:06,060 --> 01:10:03,340
sort of the i'm not sure what they're

1704
01:10:07,799 --> 01:10:06,070
called but it was a the group within the

1705
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:07,809
department of education that's very

1706
01:10:12,750 --> 01:10:10,449
responsible for for religious education

1707
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:12,760
for that time there are all religious

1708
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:15,010
people and there are the ones who is

1709
01:10:18,959 --> 01:10:16,210
supposed to be the guardians of that

1710
01:10:20,430 --> 01:10:18,969
time and therefore they have the mandate

1711
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:20,440
to say whether it's going to happen or

1712
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:23,489
not and they objected on the grounds of

1713
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:27,010
there being no basis for ethics and

1714
01:10:31,950 --> 01:10:29,710
morals and other than through religion

1715
01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:31,960
and all kinds of stuff like that so it's

1716
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:33,249
a little bit of a self-fulfilling

1717
01:10:37,799 --> 01:10:35,530
prophecy so in other words will give

1718
01:10:40,140 --> 01:10:37,809
religious instruction the other children

1719
01:10:42,810 --> 01:10:40,150
don't get anything because well you know

1720
01:10:44,100 --> 01:10:42,820
they if they can't do our classes then

1721
01:10:45,689 --> 01:10:44,110
they're not going through anything and

1722
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:45,699
therefore they won't be taught any

1723
01:10:48,660 --> 01:10:47,530
morals and ethics and see we're right if

1724
01:10:51,899 --> 01:10:48,670
you don't have religion you've got no

1725
01:10:54,359 --> 01:10:51,909
morals and ethics so they it's just

1726
01:10:56,399 --> 01:10:54,369
obviously a ridiculous and it's so it's

1727
01:10:58,109 --> 01:10:56,409
protecting you know protecting their

1728
01:11:00,390 --> 01:10:58,119
turf i completely understand i just

1729
01:11:02,220 --> 01:11:00,400
don't accept and i'm glad that this is

1730
01:11:03,989 --> 01:11:02,230
you know it's still a small win at this

1731
01:11:05,939 --> 01:11:03,999
stage because it's just a trial in some

1732
01:11:09,540 --> 01:11:05,949
sort of two terms it's only ten schools

1733
01:11:11,759 --> 01:11:09,550
but I'm it's it's the door is opened the

1734
01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:11,769
door is opened and I think that's that's

1735
01:11:14,609 --> 01:11:13,360
a great way it seems ridiculous to me

1736
01:11:16,919 --> 01:11:14,619
that this would even have to go to this

1737
01:11:18,390 --> 01:11:16,929
stage i agree but but the other thing

1738
01:11:21,959 --> 01:11:18,400
that this leaves open now is a great

1739
01:11:24,989 --> 01:11:21,969
pool of subjects for a big study right

1740
01:11:27,299 --> 01:11:24,999
so can we take the kids that sat in the

1741
01:11:29,310 --> 01:11:27,309
garden and drew roses and then take the

1742
01:11:32,129 --> 01:11:29,320
kids that did the classes and do a study

1743
01:11:36,109 --> 01:11:32,139
done downstream and see who's got the

1744
01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:36,119
the worst record for lack of ethics amor

1745
01:11:42,299 --> 01:11:39,480
we've got the sample there right mmm

1746
01:11:44,110 --> 01:11:42,309
nice we're doing someone apply for a

1747
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:44,120
growth yeah

1748
01:11:50,810 --> 01:11:48,690
now we are all looking forward to the

1749
01:11:52,460 --> 01:11:50,820
next few days in fact as you're

1750
01:11:55,610 --> 01:11:52,470
listening to this we may well be in

1751
01:11:57,710 --> 01:11:55,620
Brisbane at the Australian skeptics

1752
01:12:02,780 --> 01:11:57,720
national convention this weekend in fact

1753
01:12:06,230 --> 01:12:02,790
the 20 28 and 29 yes yes saturday and

1754
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:06,240
sunday yes briz skepticon that's right

1755
01:12:16,670 --> 01:12:12,210
that's a just rolls off will be selfish

1756
01:12:19,550 --> 01:12:16,680
Asia switch yes and next week on the

1757
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:19,560
show you'll hear very very good news a

1758
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:24,960
very young amazing news next convention

1759
01:12:30,340 --> 01:12:27,930
here in Australia November 2010 mm-hmm

1760
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:30,350
stay tuned a very interesting exciting

1761
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:33,450
okay uh was another item in the news

1762
01:12:40,460 --> 01:12:37,770
today and that is the son of the person

1763
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:40,470
who designed the Opera House isn't it

1764
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:42,810
the son's name is Jonathan he's a he's

1765
01:12:47,570 --> 01:12:44,850
an architect himself and he's now in

1766
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:47,580
Australia designing some renovations and

1767
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:48,690
changes that are going to be made to the

1768
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:50,820
Opera House and not sure why is that

1769
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:52,290
important but he's important enough for

1770
01:13:01,010 --> 01:12:55,040
the Sydney Morning Herald to report that

1771
01:13:04,850 --> 01:13:01,020
that he signed a petition to investigate

1772
01:13:07,130 --> 01:13:04,860
the September 11 conspiracy well to

1773
01:13:13,010 --> 01:13:07,140
investigate whether the supply or eleven

1774
01:13:14,930 --> 01:13:13,020
attack was was an inside job two

1775
01:13:18,110 --> 01:13:14,940
positives about that I I'm frankly I

1776
01:13:19,940 --> 01:13:18,120
don't really care what he thinks he's

1777
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:19,950
not the only he's not he's not the only

1778
01:13:23,570 --> 01:13:22,050
nut at around and that that's that's

1779
01:13:26,210 --> 01:13:23,580
really fine but there's two things about

1780
01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:26,220
this article which I found interesting

1781
01:13:30,050 --> 01:13:28,470
one is that it starts with the following

1782
01:13:32,570 --> 01:13:30,060
paragraph it's short I'll read it as

1783
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:32,580
conspiracy theories goes as sorry as

1784
01:13:37,340 --> 01:13:35,040
conspiracy theories go it is up there

1785
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:37,350
with the CIA assassination of President

1786
01:13:42,620 --> 01:13:39,570
John John F Kennedy and the fake moon

1787
01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:42,630
landings so you know I'm glad that

1788
01:13:46,220 --> 01:13:43,920
they're cheering this year that's good

1789
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:46,230
and it actually ends with also something

1790
01:13:52,900 --> 01:13:50,400
interesting that Mr Hudson said he

1791
01:13:55,430 --> 01:13:52,910
actually when he was contacted by the

1792
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:55,440
but the journalist he said he had not

1793
01:13:57,320 --> 01:13:56,970
read any of the official reports and

1794
01:13:59,030 --> 01:13:57,330
therefore

1795
01:14:02,000 --> 01:13:59,040
did not regard himself as well informed

1796
01:14:05,990 --> 01:14:02,010
I think you're not well informed why are

1797
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:06,000
you still a mission you comment yeah so

1798
01:14:09,710 --> 01:14:08,250
you know if I wouldn't sign a petition

1799
01:14:12,740 --> 01:14:09,720
about something I'm not informed about

1800
01:14:14,540 --> 01:14:12,750
but there's some people do yes but you

1801
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:14,550
and your dad didn't design the Opera

1802
01:14:19,910 --> 01:14:17,610
House that's true all right well thanks

1803
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:19,920
to Iran for coming along thank you and

1804
01:14:25,460 --> 01:14:22,800
thank you Joe thank you Richard I am

1805
01:14:28,220 --> 01:14:25,470
getting back to see ya and and I said I

1806
01:14:30,350 --> 01:14:28,230
won't be at bris skepticon however I

1807
01:14:32,540 --> 01:14:30,360
will be New York so you know if anyone

1808
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:32,550
is around please find me on Twitter and

1809
01:14:36,440 --> 01:14:34,050
Joe been home who are you definitely

1810
01:14:39,170 --> 01:14:36,450
going I'm definitely going nothing will

1811
01:14:41,330 --> 01:14:39,180
stop me and thank you dr. Ishi once

1812
01:14:42,980 --> 01:14:41,340
again thank you Richard thank you and

1813
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:42,990
until the next think tank in a couple of

1814
01:14:46,580 --> 01:14:44,640
weeks I guess or maybe even next week

1815
01:14:50,210 --> 01:14:46,590
i'm not sure depending on what we record

1816
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:50,220
so on till then cheers everybody see my

1817
01:15:16,609 --> 01:14:52,650
imaginary class again very empty glasses

1818
01:15:16,619 --> 01:15:18,900
Oh

1819
01:15:24,090 --> 01:15:20,910
thank you for listening to this week's

1820
01:15:27,180 --> 01:15:24,100
episode of the skeptic zone those of you

1821
01:15:29,190 --> 01:15:27,190
in Newport Beach California you have the

1822
01:15:32,100 --> 01:15:29,200
opportunity to meet yours truly Richard

1823
01:15:36,750 --> 01:15:32,110
Saunders on the second of January where

1824
01:15:39,570 --> 01:15:36,760
i'll be at the Muldoon's irish pub 202

1825
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:39,580
newport center drive newport beach from

1826
01:15:44,730 --> 01:15:42,970
7pm to 11pm i think there's some more

1827
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:44,740
information on facebook about that or

1828
01:15:49,890 --> 01:15:47,650
you can just ask brian dunning until the

1829
01:15:52,140 --> 01:15:49,900
next episode of the skeptic zone this is

1830
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:52,150
Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney

1831
01:16:01,860 --> 01:15:57,610
Australia you've been listening to the

1832
01:16:05,130 --> 01:16:01,870
skeptic zone visit our website at wwc a

1833
01:16:08,310 --> 01:16:05,140
petting zoo TV for comments contacts and